Help Identify year.

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 01:06 PM

I am looking into buying a luger Erfurt 9mm. It has no stamped date. Im sorry I dont have any pics and I only saw it for a moment but maybe someone can help narrow down the possibilities?
It has some very strange proof marks on side. Looks like a Large circle about the size half the size of a dime with a cross in the center and a crown above it.
Ill draw a picture. Sorry when I get pics ill update this.

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DavidJayUden · 02-19-2015, 01:18 PM

Off the top of my head I can't think of any Erfurts that went undated, as they were all military. Unless it was the very early ones? Does it have a stock lug and hold open device?
dju

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 01:26 PM

Yes it does. It also has all matching numbers. Ive been puzzled as to why it has no stamped date anywhere. Is it possible it was commercialized? It does appear to be very early judging from the patina.

cirelaw · 02-19-2015, 01:29 PM

I researched 'Proof Marks'and had no luck~ sorry ~Eric

mrerick · 02-19-2015, 01:35 PM

You're most likely looking at a "X" that was marked when this was captured by the Russians.

The Erfurt proof marks are crowns over a Fraktur letter.

All Erfurts were military guns since they were made by the Imperial Arsenal under license from DWM.

There should have been a date on the original receiver.

Depending on condition, if priced as a mid to lower range shooter (refinished ? dipped ? ) it could be worth looking at.

If your looking for a collectable gun, you'll have to post some pictures to get a more accurate analysis here.

Marc

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 01:50 PM

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Does this help any? Its a horrible pic but its all I have. I also noticed the eagle seems to be sideways instead of right side up??

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 02:23 PM

This listing seems to indicate why it doesnt have a date

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8825911

John Sabato · 02-19-2015, 02:25 PM

If the upper receiver serial number matches the rest of the gun parts serial numbers, then it is likely that some previous owner ground off the year stamp that should appear above the chamber. Only some good photographs can provide more detail than you have already been given.

DavidJayUden · 02-19-2015, 02:39 PM

John and Marc are right.
My best advice is to put your money back in your pocket until you can get some photos and better information.
Erfurt did not build commercial guns, but what could have been done to that one after the Great War is yet to be determined.
dju

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 03:04 PM

This listing seems to indicate the opposite of that. Unless Im missing something?

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8825911

DavidJayUden · 02-19-2015, 04:24 PM

I don't have Kenyon, but I'd interpret the seller to be saying that the commercials were made from parts. Just like "shooters" are made from parts. We, or at least I, generally refer to Commercials as guns manufactured for the commercial market, not mismatched military guns being given some lipstick and then sold off after the war.
Parts guns is parts guns, and if that is what you want, fine, but don't pay a premium for one.
dju

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 05:02 PM

Ok well that makes sense. Let me get some more detailed pics and I will post them. Though Im wondering how all the parts have matching numbers if they were pieced together from multiple guns?

Im definitely going to have to get much more information as the asking price doesn't reflect it being a shooter gun if it is one.

DavidJayUden · 02-19-2015, 05:16 PM

If it is an Erfurt with no date over the chamber, then there is something wrong, and I'm interested to hear what the seller says.
dju

cirelaw · 02-19-2015, 05:28 PM

Suffix are used because there are duplicate serial numbers and proofs~ A proof could effect the guns value and can maybe prove a counterfeit!! There were millions of lugers produced and even more million of proofs applied. Its better you get the answers now than haveing to explain a discrepancy years from now when you you wish to sell~ You have the finest experts anywhere to share their time and knowledge to help you immediatly. I am proud to be a part!!! This is a great band of generous friends! who are always here~~ Eric

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 05:43 PM

Some more pics. So if this is in fact a parts gun is it possible they were able to individually stamp every part to match? If so how did they remove the old numbers? Im asking because Im curious by the way. I hope Im not coming off as combative to your knowledge.

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DavidJayUden · 02-19-2015, 06:18 PM

It depends who rebuilt the gun. There were plenty of blank part available to armorers at that time which they could fit, install, number and then re-blue.
Regarding the photos, you say here are "more". Is there a total of 3 posted or did I miss some?
The extractor seems to be ill-fitting, suggesting a replacement part, but that is about all that I can tell you from the last 2 photos.
dju

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 06:26 PM

Unfortunately those are the only 3 pics I could get. Ill take my own personally this weekend.
Does anyone find the eagle proof mark on the receiver strange? I cant find another luger receiver with a similar mark. Ive looked all over.

Ron Wood · 02-19-2015, 06:55 PM

The circle with a cross in it is a British proof, although it is unusual to see it in a circle. The gun has been "commercialized" which may account for the date being ground off. The eagle is an independent firing/rework proof used by gunsmiths to conform to the 1940 German proof law. There should be a letter under the eagle but it may be obscured by the original Erfurt firing proof. If it is a "N" it is a nitro firing proof, if another letter it is a rework mark.

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 07:00 PM

Very helpful stuff Ron thanks.

pepsicolla · 02-19-2015, 07:20 PM

I must say, I'm really impressed with this board. I'm part of many different forums, rarely is everyone this helpful. There's almost always the "do your homework" or "use the search function" comments.

I hope this does work out, if not for the piece, the camaraderie here.

I'll get some more detailed pictures soon.

02-19-2015, 01:06 PM	#1
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help Identify year. I am looking into buying a luger Erfurt 9mm. It has no stamped date. Im sorry I dont have any pics and I only saw it for a moment but maybe someone can help narrow down the possibilities? It has some very strange proof marks on side. Looks like a Large circle about the size half the size of a dime with a cross in the center and a crown above it. Ill draw a picture. Sorry when I get pics ill update this.

02-19-2015, 01:35 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	You're most likely looking at a "X" that was marked when this was captured by the Russians. The Erfurt proof marks are crowns over a Fraktur letter. All Erfurts were military guns since they were made by the Imperial Arsenal under license from DWM. There should have been a date on the original receiver. Depending on condition, if priced as a mid to lower range shooter (refinished ? dipped ? ) it could be worth looking at. If your looking for a collectable gun, you'll have to post some pictures to get a more accurate analysis here. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-19-2015, 02:25 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	If the upper receiver serial number matches the rest of the gun parts serial numbers, then it is likely that some previous owner ground off the year stamp that should appear above the chamber. Only some good photographs can provide more detail than you have already been given. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-19-2015, 06:55 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	The circle with a cross in it is a British proof, although it is unusual to see it in a circle. The gun has been "commercialized" which may account for the date being ground off. The eagle is an independent firing/rework proof used by gunsmiths to conform to the 1940 German proof law. There should be a letter under the eagle but it may be obscured by the original Erfurt firing proof. If it is a "N" it is a nitro firing proof, if another letter it is a rework mark. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 02-19-2015 at 10:14 PM.

02-19-2015, 01:18 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Off the top of my head I can't think of any Erfurts that went undated, as they were all military. Unless it was the very early ones? Does it have a stock lug and hold open device? dju

02-19-2015, 01:26 PM	#3
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes it does. It also has all matching numbers. Ive been puzzled as to why it has no stamped date anywhere. Is it possible it was commercialized? It does appear to be very early judging from the patina.

02-19-2015, 01:29 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	I researched 'Proof Marks'and had no luck~ sorry ~Eric

02-19-2015, 01:50 PM	#6
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Does this help any? Its a horrible pic but its all I have. I also noticed the eagle seems to be sideways instead of right side up??

02-19-2015, 02:23 PM	#7
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This listing seems to indicate why it doesnt have a date http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8825911

02-19-2015, 02:39 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	John and Marc are right. My best advice is to put your money back in your pocket until you can get some photos and better information. Erfurt did not build commercial guns, but what could have been done to that one after the Great War is yet to be determined. dju

02-19-2015, 03:04 PM	#10
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This listing seems to indicate the opposite of that. Unless Im missing something? http://www.gunauction.com/buy/8825911

02-19-2015, 04:24 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I don't have Kenyon, but I'd interpret the seller to be saying that the commercials were made from parts. Just like "shooters" are made from parts. We, or at least I, generally refer to Commercials as guns manufactured for the commercial market, not mismatched military guns being given some lipstick and then sold off after the war. Parts guns is parts guns, and if that is what you want, fine, but don't pay a premium for one. dju

02-19-2015, 05:02 PM	#12
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ok well that makes sense. Let me get some more detailed pics and I will post them. Though Im wondering how all the parts have matching numbers if they were pieced together from multiple guns? Im definitely going to have to get much more information as the asking price doesn't reflect it being a shooter gun if it is one.

02-19-2015, 05:16 PM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If it is an Erfurt with no date over the chamber, then there is something wrong, and I'm interested to hear what the seller says. dju

02-19-2015, 05:28 PM	#14
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Suffix are used because there are duplicate serial numbers and proofs~ A proof could effect the guns value and can maybe prove a counterfeit!! There were millions of lugers produced and even more million of proofs applied. Its better you get the answers now than haveing to explain a discrepancy years from now when you you wish to sell~ You have the finest experts anywhere to share their time and knowledge to help you immediatly. I am proud to be a part!!! This is a great band of generous friends! who are always here~~ Eric

02-19-2015, 05:43 PM	#15
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Some more pics. So if this is in fact a parts gun is it possible they were able to individually stamp every part to match? If so how did they remove the old numbers? Im asking because Im curious by the way. I hope Im not coming off as combative to your knowledge.

02-19-2015, 06:18 PM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It depends who rebuilt the gun. There were plenty of blank part available to armorers at that time which they could fit, install, number and then re-blue. Regarding the photos, you say here are "more". Is there a total of 3 posted or did I miss some? The extractor seems to be ill-fitting, suggesting a replacement part, but that is about all that I can tell you from the last 2 photos. dju

02-19-2015, 06:26 PM	#17
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfortunately those are the only 3 pics I could get. Ill take my own personally this weekend. Does anyone find the eagle proof mark on the receiver strange? I cant find another luger receiver with a similar mark. Ive looked all over.

02-19-2015, 07:00 PM	#19
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Very helpful stuff Ron thanks.

02-19-2015, 07:20 PM	#20
pepsicolla User Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 11 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I must say, I'm really impressed with this board. I'm part of many different forums, rarely is everyone this helpful. There's almost always the "do your homework" or "use the search function" comments. I hope this does work out, if not for the piece, the camaraderie here. I'll get some more detailed pictures soon.