Mismatched trigger value

Geo99 · 03-06-2014, 02:27 AM

How much would a mismatched trigger affect the value of an otherwise perfectly good DWM Imperial 1915 Luger in 95% condition, with all other parts matching including the grips, and a correct non-matching # magazine?

I am looking a DWM 1915 with the correct matching number trigger but with an Erfurt proof on it. Person who owns it is supposedly the grandson of the guy who brought it back from WWI. He claims it has been in safe for over 50 years and it does have that old grease smell to it.

- Geo

lugerholsterrepair · 03-06-2014, 10:08 AM

Geo..One part incorrect is a head scratcher. You have to wonder how it got that way. Are you certain? Same number font? Only thing makes it hinky is an Erfurt stamp?

If I were buying I would consider it a horrible mismatch, hardly to be tolerated and scream financial ruin. Of course you might hear the same thing when you go to sell...On an otherwise decent DWM it wouldn't really bother me all that much IF it doesn't affect firing.

mrerick · 03-06-2014, 11:03 AM

Is it definitely an Erfurt proof, or a Crown/RC rework stamp? There were very few rework stamps in DWM, but some did exist.

Is there any documentation of the bring-back. If not, believe the gun not the story.

If buying, treat it as a mismatch if it didn't leave the factory that way.

You'll have to deal with that if and when it is ever sold again.

Marc

ithacaartist · 03-06-2014, 12:51 PM

I have a similar situation with my 1917 DWM, among other issues. It started life as an LP.08, has the 1920 property stamp, a 4" bbl. numbered to match in a different font, and was refinished somewhere along the line. Anyway, it also sports a matching number Erfurt proofed take-down lever. Could the take-down lever have been installed as some part of a rework?

mrerick · 03-06-2014, 02:24 PM

I expect that the depot that did the reworks (perhaps a field armory? perhaps Simson?) went by the philosophy that "parts is parts"...

The last thing they must have considered was how collectors like us would feel 90 or 100 years later.

The most important thing would have been fit and proper operation, followed likely by keeping the costs of refurbishment down.

It's possible that the rework facility had access to unnumbered parts to use in the rework. There were literally train cars full of inventoried parts moved from Berlin to Oberndorf by August Weiss when the DWM factory moved to Mauser. As parts that had not been used on finished guns, there would have been no reason to number them. After installation on a rework, with hand fitting, there would have been every reason to number them.

So, I guess this thread comes back to valuation. As Luger collectors, the traditional distinction has been made between the way a Luger left the DWM, Erfurt, Mauser, Krieghoff, Bern or possibly another factory as a new gun (vickers?), and the way we find them.

I'm told that rework and rebuild is normal on Swiss Lugers, and that this doesn't impact the financial value.

But we seem to treat the others differently, with extreme prejudice for things like import marks.

Ultimately, the financial value is what the next buyer will give for it. The historic value is, of course, something else again.

Marc

alvin · 03-06-2014, 09:36 PM

The higher the overall condition, the more I want it to be a matching gun. If it's 70%, or lower, non-matching trigger is Ok, what do I expect... But this one is a 95%, that trigger would bother me if it's mine.... Just an opinion.

wlyon · 03-06-2014, 11:34 PM

You never said what the price was. That would determine , for me, whether to purchase it or not. If the price is reasonable offer 15-20 % less for the mismatch. Who knows maybe you can find a correct trigger. Make sure the trigger is really a mismatch. Good luck. Bill

Edward Tinker · 03-06-2014, 11:53 PM

A mismatched trigger would bother me, not as much as a toggle or sideplates.

Being same number but Erfurt stamp gives only a couple of possibilities to me;
a lucky find by a previous owner
in the unit a same matching number was swapped accidentally
a rework using a blank but accepted Erfurt part or an Erfurt part that was numbered that way already...

Geo99 · 03-08-2014, 01:39 AM

Jerry - it is indeed a head scratcher - How do you lose a trigger? Definitely all matching inside & out - just the trigger is wrong.

Marc - The stamp is definitely a Crown over gothic "U", in the same place as the Erfurt stamp on my other guns (upper right side of trigger).

I paid $1200, it's really a 93-94% gun. I could probably keep it for $900-$1000, but I'm not sure I want the headache - I'm trying to collect nice complete guns and it doesn't fit my collection.

I just noticed the trigger is not even original condition - it's been sanded and restrawed. It has a little fire blue on a sharp edge (probably got overheated) and the grinding lines are wrong direction from every other one I have.

Bore is shiny and sharp, some pits in grooves only. I will put up pics tomorrow. Would anyone want it for $1000?

- Geo

Geo99 · 03-08-2014, 06:57 PM

Here are some pictures of the gun and a closeup of the stamp I'm talking about. They aren't great pics but should work. Unless I can justify keeping it for $1000, it goes back on Monday.

What's weird is this is the second gun I've bought in the last month that had just ONE mismatched Erfurt part on a DWM Luger, and with the correct serial number on it.

- Geo

wlyon · 03-08-2014, 07:12 PM

I have a very nice 1913 DWM with the same Crown M on the sear bar. I have always assumed it was a correct replacement part and has never bothered me. I feel that we collectors ,especially now, demand to much from wartime weapons. Your Crown M trigger would not bother me. Especially for $1000. You are the only one who can make this decision. Bill

Sergio Natali · 03-09-2014, 01:28 PM

I've read all the posts, all in all I agree with Bill, moreover I think that for what I can see from your photos you've got quite a nice gun.
It's true that perhaps we tend to demand too much from wartime weapons.

alvin · 03-09-2014, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

It's true that perhaps we tend to demand too much from wartime weapons.

The gun volume is fixed. The only variable is the number of collectors.

I am always amazed by the volume and high price of shotguns and revolvers on the auction market. Interesting enough, when I was a the preview, I noticed there are lots of people circling around those American made C&R shotguns (Winchester? I don't know). Looks like the supply and demand still balance. Relatively fewer people are looking at European C&Rs (well, I did not stay there long, but that's the case in that hour).

===

[Edit] Just checked the ad, a little bit correction -- probably not shotgun, I guess that's lever rifle.

03-06-2014, 02:27 AM	#1
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Mismatched trigger value How much would a mismatched trigger affect the value of an otherwise perfectly good DWM Imperial 1915 Luger in 95% condition, with all other parts matching including the grips, and a correct non-matching # magazine? I am looking a DWM 1915 with the correct matching number trigger but with an Erfurt proof on it. Person who owns it is supposedly the grandson of the guy who brought it back from WWI. He claims it has been in safe for over 50 years and it does have that old grease smell to it. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

03-06-2014, 10:08 AM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Geo..One part incorrect is a head scratcher. You have to wonder how it got that way. Are you certain? Same number font? Only thing makes it hinky is an Erfurt stamp? If I were buying I would consider it a horrible mismatch, hardly to be tolerated and scream financial ruin. Of course you might hear the same thing when you go to sell...On an otherwise decent DWM it wouldn't really bother me all that much IF it doesn't affect firing. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-06-2014, 11:03 AM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Is it definitely an Erfurt proof, or a Crown/RC rework stamp? There were very few rework stamps in DWM, but some did exist. Is there any documentation of the bring-back. If not, believe the gun not the story. If buying, treat it as a mismatch if it didn't leave the factory that way. You'll have to deal with that if and when it is ever sold again. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-06-2014, 12:51 PM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,369 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	I have a similar situation with my 1917 DWM, among other issues. It started life as an LP.08, has the 1920 property stamp, a 4" bbl. numbered to match in a different font, and was refinished somewhere along the line. Anyway, it also sports a matching number Erfurt proofed take-down lever. Could the take-down lever have been installed as some part of a rework? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-06-2014, 02:24 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	I expect that the depot that did the reworks (perhaps a field armory? perhaps Simson?) went by the philosophy that "parts is parts"... The last thing they must have considered was how collectors like us would feel 90 or 100 years later. The most important thing would have been fit and proper operation, followed likely by keeping the costs of refurbishment down. It's possible that the rework facility had access to unnumbered parts to use in the rework. There were literally train cars full of inventoried parts moved from Berlin to Oberndorf by August Weiss when the DWM factory moved to Mauser. As parts that had not been used on finished guns, there would have been no reason to number them. After installation on a rework, with hand fitting, there would have been every reason to number them. So, I guess this thread comes back to valuation. As Luger collectors, the traditional distinction has been made between the way a Luger left the DWM, Erfurt, Mauser, Krieghoff, Bern or possibly another factory as a new gun (vickers?), and the way we find them. I'm told that rework and rebuild is normal on Swiss Lugers, and that this doesn't impact the financial value. But we seem to treat the others differently, with extreme prejudice for things like import marks. Ultimately, the financial value is what the next buyer will give for it. The historic value is, of course, something else again. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-06-2014, 09:36 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The higher the overall condition, the more I want it to be a matching gun. If it's 70%, or lower, non-matching trigger is Ok, what do I expect... But this one is a 95%, that trigger would bother me if it's mine.... Just an opinion.

03-06-2014, 11:34 PM	#7
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,613 Times in 969 Posts	You never said what the price was. That would determine , for me, whether to purchase it or not. If the price is reasonable offer 15-20 % less for the mismatch. Who knows maybe you can find a correct trigger. Make sure the trigger is really a mismatch. Good luck. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-06-2014, 11:53 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	A mismatched trigger would bother me, not as much as a toggle or sideplates. Being same number but Erfurt stamp gives only a couple of possibilities to me; a lucky find by a previous owner in the unit a same matching number was swapped accidentally a rework using a blank but accepted Erfurt part or an Erfurt part that was numbered that way already... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-08-2014, 01:39 AM	#9
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Jerry - it is indeed a head scratcher - How do you lose a trigger? Definitely all matching inside & out - just the trigger is wrong. Marc - The stamp is definitely a Crown over gothic "U", in the same place as the Erfurt stamp on my other guns (upper right side of trigger). I paid $1200, it's really a 93-94% gun. I could probably keep it for $900-$1000, but I'm not sure I want the headache - I'm trying to collect nice complete guns and it doesn't fit my collection. I just noticed the trigger is not even original condition - it's been sanded and restrawed. It has a little fire blue on a sharp edge (probably got overheated) and the grinding lines are wrong direction from every other one I have. Bore is shiny and sharp, some pits in grooves only. I will put up pics tomorrow. Would anyone want it for $1000? - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers Last edited by Geo99; 03-08-2014 at 01:29 PM.

03-08-2014, 06:57 PM	#10
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Here are some pictures of the gun and a closeup of the stamp I'm talking about. They aren't great pics but should work. Unless I can justify keeping it for $1000, it goes back on Monday. What's weird is this is the second gun I've bought in the last month that had just ONE mismatched Erfurt part on a DWM Luger, and with the correct serial number on it. - Geo Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

03-08-2014, 07:12 PM	#11
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,613 Times in 969 Posts	I have a very nice 1913 DWM with the same Crown M on the sear bar. I have always assumed it was a correct replacement part and has never bothered me. I feel that we collectors ,especially now, demand to much from wartime weapons. Your Crown M trigger would not bother me. Especially for $1000. You are the only one who can make this decision. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-09-2014, 01:28 PM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I've read all the posts, all in all I agree with Bill, moreover I think that for what I can see from your photos you've got quite a nice gun. It's true that perhaps we tend to demand too much from wartime weapons. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.