FTF & Stove Piping issues...

Zorba · 09-01-2013, 10:04 PM

I've already sent a similar message to GT asking his opinion about my magazines, but I just got back from my second range trip with my '40 42 with:

Intermittant FTF and stove piping issues. One magazine is (apparently) factory Mauser, the other is modern (no-name) aftermarket. Similar problems with both. The aftermarket's spring is MUCH stronger than the Mauser's - but has almost no force for the very last round. Both have some hold open problems, esp. the aftermarket.

The other data point here is that I've taken this gun to the range twice now. The first time I only shot about 25-30 rounds - and other than the aftermarket mag failing to hold open 50% of the time, all was well. Today, I shot about 100 rounds, and had these problems intermittently (with both mags). The only thing really consistent was FTF on the last round, again with both mags. Didn't have that problem last time. Perhaps I oiled something that shouldn't have been oiled? Flakes of brass found inside gun when I cleaned it.

Thoughts & opinions?

skeeter4206 · 09-01-2013, 10:24 PM

Did you change brand of Ammo. Mine does the same thing no matter what mag I use with some types of ammo. But give some Winchester white box or PMC and I can shoot all day. Its a trip out these guns function perfect some days and others it just isn't happening.

Zorba · 09-01-2013, 10:34 PM

Yea - I was shooting a combination of WWB, PMC, and Blazer Brass. All 115gr FMJ. No perceivable difference - this time or last.

Oh, and NEVER an ejection problem!

Zorba · 09-02-2013, 12:55 AM

And in other news, GT has graciously offered to take a looksee at both mags, and install new springs. So I'll at least know the mags - and the ammo - are correct.

mrerick · 09-02-2013, 11:23 AM

The Luger is very sensitive to how you grip and support the gun while firing.

It needs a relatively strong consistent support in order to cycle properly.

I don't think you can Lubricate a Luger into a FTF problem. There are some things to take a look at. One is how hard the toggle rear is hitting the receiver when firing. Put a little masking tape right at the back of the receiver under the place where the toggle will hit it. Take a look at how consistent this is hitting, and how hard.

After verifying that the magazines are OK, you might need a replacement recoil spring.

These later Mauser Lugers use the higher count (21 turn) recoil springs.

Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 09-02-2013, 11:48 AM

You need to explain in detail the fail to fire sequence. FTF has nothing to do with the magazines. Or oiling anything. But it is important to know WHAT it does or does not do. Does it click but does not fire? Is the trigger dead..no click no nothing? The round is in the chamber, the previous round fired..now nothing or? FTF is not enough of an explanation to figure out what might be going on.

Zorba · 09-02-2013, 02:42 PM

Apparently bad nomenclature on my part, I'm meaning Failure To Feed - not Failure To Fire.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-02-2013, 02:51 PM

Again, explanations of exact specifics might be helpful! The only thing really consistent was FTF on the last round, again with both mags.

Doesn't strip the round leaving it in the mag? Partially feeds at an angle and jams? Details...

Zorba · 09-02-2013, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Doesn't strip the round leaving it in the mag? Partially feeds at an angle and jams? Details...

With the last round, a failure to strip.

Rounds in the middle, usually feeds at an angle and jams - although there were a couple of strip failures "in the middle" as well.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-02-2013, 05:33 PM

Your problems are deffinately magazine related. Peek inside your mags and see if the springs are round coil or zig zag.

Have you checked the feed lips? Sometimes these get spread letting the round pop up when feeding and causing the upward jam.

The failure to strip a round is either a weak spring, dirty un oiled, bent or some such. Either way you need to check firing the weapon with a good functioning mag to see if all is well and it is indeed a magazine malfunction rather than the pistol. .

And in other news, GT has graciously offered to take a looksee at both mags, and install new springs. So I'll at least know the mags - and the ammo - are correct. YUP THAT's IT!

Sieger · 09-03-2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zormpas

With the last round, a failure to strip.

Rounds in the middle, usually feeds at an angle and jams - although there were a couple of strip failures "in the middle" as well.

Hi:

Your ammo is too short, so don't expect it to feed properly.

Correct length for round nose ammo should be 1.173 inches.

Some say the Winchester White Box makes the Luger function properly.

If you want to really shoot a Luger, you will have to handload for it.

Sieger

lugerholsterrepair · 09-03-2013, 11:32 AM

Sieger, this statement is rediculous! If you want to really shoot a Luger, you will have to handload for it. I handload and I shoot many thousands of rounds of commercial ammo. Winchester White Box has always worked well for me and many other brands too! Not all of course but MANY other types of pistols are ammunition sensitive.

Your ammo is too short, so don't expect it to feed properly. Don't worry about this until you have a good magazine! Get some know good ammo, WWB and a good functioning magazine, make sure it all works as it should..eliminate one problem at a time.

Sergio Natali · 09-03-2013, 12:24 PM

I would check the magazine, but every time I've had a "stove piping" sort of problem (never had one so far with a Luger, but admittedly I reload my own cartridges and most of all I shoot Lugers only occasionally at the range), is generally a matter of a load too light for the recoil spring / recoil spring too heavy for the load, extractor tension too light, worn extractor hook, loose or damaged ejector, loose grip.
This is my 2 cents.

Sieger · 09-03-2013, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Sieger, this statement is rediculous! If you want to really shoot a Luger, you will have to handload for it. I handload and I shoot many thousands of rounds of commercial ammo. Winchester White Box has always worked well for me and many other brands too! Not all of course but MANY other types of pistols are ammunition sensitive.

Your ammo is too short, so don't expect it to feed properly. Don't worry about this until you have a good magazine! Get some know good ammo, WWB and a good functioning magazine, make sure it all works as it should..eliminate one problem at a time.

Jerry,

This subject has been discussed here time and time and time again.

We agree that if a Luger's springs are worn or out of spec., the Luger will not function properly with just about any type of ammo, commercial or handloaded.

Otherwise, I'll feel free to do what I know works with my Lugers, and you can feel free to do the same.

Respectfully

Sieger

lugerholsterrepair · 09-04-2013, 09:45 AM

Sieger..I don't need your leave to feel free to go about my business thank you. The facts are, there are many Luger shooters that don't handload. Another is that commercial made 9MM ammunition is perfectly acceptable and much of it works with no problems in most Lugers.
Thirdly I have about as much Luger gunsmithing experience as most and I have busted apart 3 different Lugers that were complete rustballs, wheel wire brushed them down to the white, trimmed off ends of rusted springs, put them together and they shoot perfectly.

I think the Luger and it's springs can be very resiliant. To start with handloading and changing out springs to solve simple problems is beyond what most casual shooters need or want to attempt. Personally I have fired untold rounds through all kinds of lugers for decades and have NEVER found it necessary to change ANY spring! OH! Wait it just came to me the one time I changed a spring..I had a Luger with a GREAT smooth trigger pull and I got to wondering about it..I took out the trigger and someone had put in a ball point pen spring!

There are many fixes to many problems on Luger's and I think it's bad advice to state that a Luger will not shoot properly without handloading cause I know better.

Zorba · 09-06-2013, 12:02 AM

GT just emailed me about the mags - pretty much what I had expected. The repro had a pretty miserable spring in it. The "Mauser" is not a Mauser at all, but a WWI DWM or Erfurt with a retrofitted aluminum base and a worn out spring. Apparently it had some dents too. In any event, they're on their way back vastly improved!

Sieger · 09-07-2013, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Sieger..I don't need your leave to feel free to go about my business thank you. The facts are, there are many Luger shooters that don't handload. Another is that commercial made 9MM ammunition is perfectly acceptable and much of it works with no problems in most Lugers.
Thirdly I have about as much Luger gunsmithing experience as most and I have busted apart 3 different Lugers that were complete rustballs, wheel wire brushed them down to the white, trimmed off ends of rusted springs, put them together and they shoot perfectly.

I think the Luger and it's springs can be very resiliant. To start with handloading and changing out springs to solve simple problems is beyond what most casual shooters need or want to attempt. Personally I have fired untold rounds through all kinds of lugers for decades and have NEVER found it necessary to change ANY spring! OH! Wait it just came to me the one time I changed a spring..I had a Luger with a GREAT smooth trigger pull and I got to wondering about it..I took out the trigger and someone had put in a ball point pen spring!

There are many fixes to many problems on Luger's and I think it's bad advice to state that a Luger will not shoot properly without handloading cause I know better.

``

Jerry,

Opinions often vary.

Sieger

Sieger · 09-07-2013, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zormpas

GT just emailed me about the mags - pretty much what I had expected. The repro had a pretty miserable spring in it. The "Mauser" is not a Mauser at all, but a WWI DWM or Erfurt with a retrofitted aluminum base and a worn out spring. Apparently it had some dents too. In any event, they're on their way back vastly improved!

Zormpas,

When you get those mags back from GT, please send me a PM and we'll get your Luger shooting and shooting accurately.

Sieger

Zorba · 09-10-2013, 12:06 AM

Mags are back from GT - and I can already see a huge improvement. Turns out the "Mauser" mag with the aluminum bottom isn't a Mauser at all - GT says its either a DWM or an Erfurt, WW I era, which someone fitted with the afore mentioned bottom. The "no-name" remains so, but resembles "an early Mec-Gar" - but was represented to me as new, so who knows who actually made it!

In any event, the old DWM/Erfurt's weak spring is now brisk and snappy, as is the no-name's. He had to do some dent management and adjustments.

All I've had time to do is run 3 snap caps through each one, manually cycling the gun. They both performed flawlessly with this limited test, something they never really did before. Both held open correctly too!

My wife and I are getting ready for a veil duette performance at an upcoming Belly Dance festival, so it might be a bit before I get to the range - but I think the refurbished mags will perform MUCH better! My wife will want to shoot her revolver too, so it'll be a fun day at the range when we do get there.

09-01-2013, 10:04 PM	#1
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	FTF & Stove Piping issues... I've already sent a similar message to GT asking his opinion about my magazines, but I just got back from my second range trip with my '40 42 with: Intermittant FTF and stove piping issues. One magazine is (apparently) factory Mauser, the other is modern (no-name) aftermarket. Similar problems with both. The aftermarket's spring is MUCH stronger than the Mauser's - but has almost no force for the very last round. Both have some hold open problems, esp. the aftermarket. The other data point here is that I've taken this gun to the range twice now. The first time I only shot about 25-30 rounds - and other than the aftermarket mag failing to hold open 50% of the time, all was well. Today, I shot about 100 rounds, and had these problems intermittently (with both mags). The only thing really consistent was FTF on the last round, again with both mags. Didn't have that problem last time. Perhaps I oiled something that shouldn't have been oiled? Flakes of brass found inside gun when I cleaned it. Thoughts & opinions?

09-02-2013, 11:23 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	The Luger is very sensitive to how you grip and support the gun while firing. It needs a relatively strong consistent support in order to cycle properly. I don't think you can Lubricate a Luger into a FTF problem. There are some things to take a look at. One is how hard the toggle rear is hitting the receiver when firing. Put a little masking tape right at the back of the receiver under the place where the toggle will hit it. Take a look at how consistent this is hitting, and how hard. After verifying that the magazines are OK, you might need a replacement recoil spring. These later Mauser Lugers use the higher count (21 turn) recoil springs. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-02-2013, 11:48 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,439 Posts	You need to explain in detail the fail to fire sequence. FTF has nothing to do with the magazines. Or oiling anything. But it is important to know WHAT it does or does not do. Does it click but does not fire? Is the trigger dead..no click no nothing? The round is in the chamber, the previous round fired..now nothing or? FTF is not enough of an explanation to figure out what might be going on. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-02-2013, 02:51 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,439 Posts	Again, explanations of exact specifics might be helpful! The only thing really consistent was FTF on the last round, again with both mags. Doesn't strip the round leaving it in the mag? Partially feeds at an angle and jams? Details... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-02-2013, 05:33 PM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,439 Posts	Your problems are deffinately magazine related. Peek inside your mags and see if the springs are round coil or zig zag. Have you checked the feed lips? Sometimes these get spread letting the round pop up when feeding and causing the upward jam. The failure to strip a round is either a weak spring, dirty un oiled, bent or some such. Either way you need to check firing the weapon with a good functioning mag to see if all is well and it is indeed a magazine malfunction rather than the pistol. . And in other news, GT has graciously offered to take a looksee at both mags, and install new springs. So I'll at least know the mags - and the ammo - are correct. YUP THAT's IT! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-01-2013, 10:24 PM	#2
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	Did you change brand of Ammo. Mine does the same thing no matter what mag I use with some types of ammo. But give some Winchester white box or PMC and I can shoot all day. Its a trip out these guns function perfect some days and others it just isn't happening.

09-01-2013, 10:34 PM	#3
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	Yea - I was shooting a combination of WWB, PMC, and Blazer Brass. All 115gr FMJ. No perceivable difference - this time or last. Oh, and NEVER an ejection problem!

09-02-2013, 12:55 AM	#4
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	And in other news, GT has graciously offered to take a looksee at both mags, and install new springs. So I'll at least know the mags - and the ammo - are correct.

09-02-2013, 02:42 PM	#7
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	Apparently bad nomenclature on my part, I'm meaning Failure To Feed - not Failure To Fire.

09-03-2013, 11:32 AM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,439 Posts	Sieger, this statement is rediculous! If you want to really shoot a Luger, you will have to handload for it. I handload and I shoot many thousands of rounds of commercial ammo. Winchester White Box has always worked well for me and many other brands too! Not all of course but MANY other types of pistols are ammunition sensitive. Your ammo is too short, so don't expect it to feed properly. Don't worry about this until you have a good magazine! Get some know good ammo, WWB and a good functioning magazine, make sure it all works as it should..eliminate one problem at a time. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-03-2013, 12:24 PM	#13
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I would check the magazine, but every time I've had a "stove piping" sort of problem (never had one so far with a Luger, but admittedly I reload my own cartridges and most of all I shoot Lugers only occasionally at the range), is generally a matter of a load too light for the recoil spring / recoil spring too heavy for the load, extractor tension too light, worn extractor hook, loose or damaged ejector, loose grip. This is my 2 cents. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-04-2013, 09:45 AM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,132 Times in 1,439 Posts	Sieger..I don't need your leave to feel free to go about my business thank you. The facts are, there are many Luger shooters that don't handload. Another is that commercial made 9MM ammunition is perfectly acceptable and much of it works with no problems in most Lugers. Thirdly I have about as much Luger gunsmithing experience as most and I have busted apart 3 different Lugers that were complete rustballs, wheel wire brushed them down to the white, trimmed off ends of rusted springs, put them together and they shoot perfectly. I think the Luger and it's springs can be very resiliant. To start with handloading and changing out springs to solve simple problems is beyond what most casual shooters need or want to attempt. Personally I have fired untold rounds through all kinds of lugers for decades and have NEVER found it necessary to change ANY spring! OH! Wait it just came to me the one time I changed a spring..I had a Luger with a GREAT smooth trigger pull and I got to wondering about it..I took out the trigger and someone had put in a ball point pen spring! There are many fixes to many problems on Luger's and I think it's bad advice to state that a Luger will not shoot properly without handloading cause I know better. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-06-2013, 12:02 AM	#16
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	GT just emailed me about the mags - pretty much what I had expected. The repro had a pretty miserable spring in it. The "Mauser" is not a Mauser at all, but a WWI DWM or Erfurt with a retrofitted aluminum base and a worn out spring. Apparently it had some dents too. In any event, they're on their way back vastly improved!

09-10-2013, 12:06 AM	#19
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 527 Times in 290 Posts	Mags are back from GT - and I can already see a huge improvement. Turns out the "Mauser" mag with the aluminum bottom isn't a Mauser at all - GT says its either a DWM or an Erfurt, WW I era, which someone fitted with the afore mentioned bottom. The "no-name" remains so, but resembles "an early Mec-Gar" - but was represented to me as new, so who knows who actually made it! In any event, the old DWM/Erfurt's weak spring is now brisk and snappy, as is the no-name's. He had to do some dent management and adjustments. All I've had time to do is run 3 snap caps through each one, manually cycling the gun. They both performed flawlessly with this limited test, something they never really did before. Both held open correctly too! My wife and I are getting ready for a veil duette performance at an upcoming Belly Dance festival, so it might be a bit before I get to the range - but I think the refurbished mags will perform MUCH better! My wife will want to shoot her revolver too, so it'll be a fun day at the range when we do get there.