Dream come true

jrwakefield · 08-16-2013, 10:27 AM

I finally got my self a bit of history, a 1913 Luger. Been waiting all my life to get one of these beauties

. Back in the early 70's I used to own one of the replicas, only to lose it when they became illegal.

But now I have a real one.

I'd like to find out as much history of this as I can, but it's clear there has been changes to it. It has a new barrel (6") as the 4" barrels are illegal in Canada. The part numbers dont all match.

Under the barrel is #6786. The receiver is #7807, all breach parts at 07 except the side which as 26.

Chinese markings on the right side.

Over all it's in good shape. There are clamp markings on the end of the barrel.

It came with one mag with wood end, looking to get some new reproductions. Like to have 4 mags for it.

It's going for a test fire at a competition shoot I'll be at over the weekend.

Anything anyone can tell me is greatly appreciated.

DavidJayUden · 08-16-2013, 10:37 AM

I'd like to see photos, particularly the Chinese markings.
Not sure what else to offer up at this point. Definitely hunt up repop. mags as using the old wooden ones will probably break them sooner or later.
Load just one shot first time, then 2, etc, until you are comfortable with the gun's function. Congratulations on your find!
Let us know if you have specific questions.
dju

jrwakefield · 08-16-2013, 10:53 AM

These 60 year old eyes not as good as they used to be. I took a closeup of the proofs.

Went to the technical page to find the proofs, but dont see what I have.

jrwakefield · 08-16-2013, 11:10 AM

Here's some more closeups:

100 years this year has taken it's toll on the finish.

you can see the tool marks on the end of the barrel.

I may shoot her this season of events I go to, then she will retire as a collector item.

JTD · 08-16-2013, 04:50 PM

X before ser# on upper half = Russian capture
Lower frame is Kreghoff manufacture. eagle 2 mark
The crown over letter you show are factory proofing and military aceptance proofs.
If it runs good, is a great shooter. It should be acurate with the barrel. John

jrwakefield · 08-16-2013, 05:28 PM

Thanks John, so that begs the question, Russian capture when? During WWII? Was it issued to German officer during WWI? Then what happened between the wars? And then how would it have gotten into a Canadian hands?

Are there records of issued Lugers?

I gotta find out now.

mrerick · 08-16-2013, 06:27 PM

Hi,

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Luger. I know that it must have been difficult to acquire one of these in Canada, and congratulate you on completing that process as well.

The Russians captured large numbers of Lugers and other German firearms at the end of WW-II. Many of these were reworked, and some refinished for use by their military and police organizations. When they went through Russian armories they got the "X" stamp. This also helped them verify when a firearm had been turned in upon capture, especially preventing it from being removed from stores and then "found" and turned in later.

As more modern firearms became available, these old Lugers went into storage. Starting in then 1950's there were several importers in the USA (and probably Canada) that worked deals with the Russians and other governments behind the Iron Curtain to buy their surplus firearms.

This is how most came to the USA.

Is your Luger import marked? This became required in the USA in 1968.

Since your Luger came from parts of several separate firearms, it's unlikely that you'll be able to trace issuance. The SoldBuch that soldiers carried listed firearms issued to them individually. I think copies of these books were kept at unit level, but no central records were maintained.

Your Krieghoff frame came from the Luftwaffe. The 1913 upper is a WW-I firearm, probably a DWM like the toggle.

The "Chinese Markings" you mentioned are the fraktur letter proof marks applied when the pistol was originally completed, inspected and proofed.

Marc

alvin · 08-16-2013, 07:07 PM

I did not see Chinese marking in photos.

Weird enough, there are indeed some Lugers in Chinese museums and police storage. Even more interesting, quite a few of them are Artillery Lugers with barrel shortened to 4". Originally, I thought those Lugers were carried there by Soviet Red Army in 1945, but the volume is bigger than a few instances, and the location was far away from Russia.... now I guess those guns were exported there in 1920s. Not as many as Mauser. There are instances with broken wood magazine bottom repaired with Nambu parts. The gun blue condition is much lower than this one.

JTD · 08-16-2013, 09:24 PM

Marc gave you a reply that explains it really well.

jrwakefield · 08-17-2013, 03:23 PM

Thanks guys. The "Chinese" markings were just these old eyes fooling me.

Fired it today at the Ontario Rifle Association's CQB (Close Quarters Battle) match (35-10yrds). It's a carbine/pistol COF. I didnt tell anyone about the Luger, just pulled it out and fired.

It stove piped a live round a couple times, popping up in the breach instead of feeding into the chamber. It's also shooting left about 6" at 20 yards.

I fired about 50 round through it. There were a number of drooling people (LOL). One even offered more than I paid. Nope.

I'm thinking of getting it refinished over the winter. This is a keeper for my descendants to enjoy.

When the day's photos get posted I'll copy one to here.

jrwakefield · 08-17-2013, 03:28 PM

Marc: 'Is your Luger import marked?"

Not sure what to look for or where. What you see in the pics is the only markings. So that means it came to NA before the 1960's?

jrwakefield · 08-17-2013, 03:37 PM

The pics are up already.

Here's me shooting her.

jrwakefield · 08-17-2013, 04:09 PM

This is the carbine I used with the Luger.

Anyone want to guess what it is?

rhuff · 08-17-2013, 04:56 PM

You might want to try and purchase a couple of new Mec-Gar Luger mags for your Luger. Also try different ammo, but stay away from +P, +P+, and NATO 9mm ammo for it is too hot for the Luger. Winchester 115 or 124gr FMJ, or PMC 115 FMJ work well. Many folks have had problems with Remington 9mm.

alvin · 08-17-2013, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrwakefield

This is the carbine I used with the Luger.

Anyone want to guess what it is?

Is it an Israel version of AK47 ?? I forgot the exact name .....

jrwakefield · 08-18-2013, 09:10 PM

It's a Cz858 with major customization. Cz's are made in the Czech Republic (I also have their Cz85 pistol in 9mm).

You're close because the added stock, grip and scope mount came from Israel.

08-16-2013, 10:27 AM	#1
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Dream come true I finally got my self a bit of history, a 1913 Luger. Been waiting all my life to get one of these beauties. Back in the early 70's I used to own one of the replicas, only to lose it when they became illegal. But now I have a real one. I'd like to find out as much history of this as I can, but it's clear there has been changes to it. It has a new barrel (6") as the 4" barrels are illegal in Canada. The part numbers dont all match. Under the barrel is #6786. The receiver is #7807, all breach parts at 07 except the side which as 26. Chinese markings on the right side. Over all it's in good shape. There are clamp markings on the end of the barrel. It came with one mag with wood end, looking to get some new reproductions. Like to have 4 mags for it. It's going for a test fire at a competition shoot I'll be at over the weekend. Anything anyone can tell me is greatly appreciated.

08-16-2013, 10:37 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd like to see photos, particularly the Chinese markings. Not sure what else to offer up at this point. Definitely hunt up repop. mags as using the old wooden ones will probably break them sooner or later. Load just one shot first time, then 2, etc, until you are comfortable with the gun's function. Congratulations on your find! Let us know if you have specific questions. dju

08-16-2013, 10:53 AM	#3
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	These 60 year old eyes not as good as they used to be. I took a closeup of the proofs. Went to the technical page to find the proofs, but dont see what I have.

08-16-2013, 11:10 AM	#4
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Here's some more closeups: 100 years this year has taken it's toll on the finish. you can see the tool marks on the end of the barrel. I may shoot her this season of events I go to, then she will retire as a collector item.

08-16-2013, 04:50 PM	#5
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	X before ser# on upper half = Russian capture Lower frame is Kreghoff manufacture. eagle 2 mark The crown over letter you show are factory proofing and military aceptance proofs. If it runs good, is a great shooter. It should be acurate with the barrel. John

08-16-2013, 05:28 PM	#6
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Thanks John, so that begs the question, Russian capture when? During WWII? Was it issued to German officer during WWI? Then what happened between the wars? And then how would it have gotten into a Canadian hands? Are there records of issued Lugers? I gotta find out now.

08-16-2013, 06:27 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,919 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi, Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Luger. I know that it must have been difficult to acquire one of these in Canada, and congratulate you on completing that process as well. The Russians captured large numbers of Lugers and other German firearms at the end of WW-II. Many of these were reworked, and some refinished for use by their military and police organizations. When they went through Russian armories they got the "X" stamp. This also helped them verify when a firearm had been turned in upon capture, especially preventing it from being removed from stores and then "found" and turned in later. As more modern firearms became available, these old Lugers went into storage. Starting in then 1950's there were several importers in the USA (and probably Canada) that worked deals with the Russians and other governments behind the Iron Curtain to buy their surplus firearms. This is how most came to the USA. Is your Luger import marked? This became required in the USA in 1968. Since your Luger came from parts of several separate firearms, it's unlikely that you'll be able to trace issuance. The SoldBuch that soldiers carried listed firearms issued to them individually. I think copies of these books were kept at unit level, but no central records were maintained. Your Krieghoff frame came from the Luftwaffe. The 1913 upper is a WW-I firearm, probably a DWM like the toggle. The "Chinese Markings" you mentioned are the fraktur letter proof marks applied when the pistol was originally completed, inspected and proofed. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-16-2013, 07:07 PM	#8
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I did not see Chinese marking in photos. Weird enough, there are indeed some Lugers in Chinese museums and police storage. Even more interesting, quite a few of them are Artillery Lugers with barrel shortened to 4". Originally, I thought those Lugers were carried there by Soviet Red Army in 1945, but the volume is bigger than a few instances, and the location was far away from Russia.... now I guess those guns were exported there in 1920s. Not as many as Mauser. There are instances with broken wood magazine bottom repaired with Nambu parts. The gun blue condition is much lower than this one.

08-16-2013, 09:24 PM	#9
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 428 Thanks: 218 Thanked 410 Times in 151 Posts	Marc gave you a reply that explains it really well.

08-17-2013, 03:23 PM	#10
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Thanks guys. The "Chinese" markings were just these old eyes fooling me. Fired it today at the Ontario Rifle Association's CQB (Close Quarters Battle) match (35-10yrds). It's a carbine/pistol COF. I didnt tell anyone about the Luger, just pulled it out and fired. It stove piped a live round a couple times, popping up in the breach instead of feeding into the chamber. It's also shooting left about 6" at 20 yards. I fired about 50 round through it. There were a number of drooling people (LOL). One even offered more than I paid. Nope. I'm thinking of getting it refinished over the winter. This is a keeper for my descendants to enjoy. When the day's photos get posted I'll copy one to here.

08-17-2013, 03:28 PM	#11
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Marc: 'Is your Luger import marked?" Not sure what to look for or where. What you see in the pics is the only markings. So that means it came to NA before the 1960's?

08-17-2013, 03:37 PM	#12
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	The pics are up already. Here's me shooting her.

08-17-2013, 04:09 PM	#13
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	This is the carbine I used with the Luger. Anyone want to guess what it is?

08-17-2013, 04:56 PM	#14
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,305 Thanks: 2,735 Thanked 991 Times in 727 Posts	You might want to try and purchase a couple of new Mec-Gar Luger mags for your Luger. Also try different ammo, but stay away from +P, +P+, and NATO 9mm ammo for it is too hot for the Luger. Winchester 115 or 124gr FMJ, or PMC 115 FMJ work well. Many folks have had problems with Remington 9mm.

08-18-2013, 09:10 PM	#16
jrwakefield User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: London, Ontario Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	It's a Cz858 with major customization. Cz's are made in the Czech Republic (I also have their Cz85 pistol in 9mm). You're close because the added stock, grip and scope mount came from Israel.