New US Senate SB.649 proposal and C&R

mrerick · 03-16-2013, 11:13 AM

Note: This bill is now S.649 (part of the confusing US Congress "shell game"... It was introduced directly to the Senate floor on 3/21/2013 by Harry Reid and his Judiciary committee. Same bad bill, with more added... Link in later post.

I know our focus here is on Lugers and generally avoid discussing legislative issues, especially as we are international and not US focused.

With apologies to non-US members, I want to share some analysis with US members that have C&R FFL licenses.

In addition to the rest of it's draconian content, the language in the recently introduced Federal S.649 effectively interferes with transfer of firearms to and from Gunsmiths with a gunsmith FFL.

Wording in this bill corrected the original problem for collectors, and it now includes collectors that are Federally licensed Class 3 Curio and Relic FFL holders.

Here's the law as passed into the Senate by the Judiciary Committee 3//21/2013:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf

In effect, this new legislation will prevent transfers to and from gunsmiths.

I also wonder where the money for beefing up the NCIS system is coming from?

Marc

wayne8661 · 03-16-2013, 12:19 PM

Wow almost seems pointless to apply for a C&R license.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-16-2013, 01:53 PM

I also wonder where the $500,000,000 for beefing up the NCIS system is coming from?

They will "tax" the gun buyer by making him pay for registration/ transfers and call it a "fee'

mrerick · 03-26-2013, 09:19 PM

Here are more details on the current text of S.374, which has morphed to S.649 as part of the confusing congressional shell game of bills:

This is frustrating, especially with Bloomberg paying for deceptively worded ads touting this bill (that sound like pro-gun ads, but that are not)... Ads that show the violation of three of the NRA basic safety principles.

The proposed Senate law known as S.649 text is at:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s649

PDF is at:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf

If you read it closely, you will see that transfers do not take place through all "licensees"; they take place through "dealers"; "importers" "collectors" and "manufacturers" using NCIS for background checks each time.

I wonder when Collectors will gain access to NCIS?

You will see that "gunsmiths" are left out of the bill.
Marc

Shadowsix · 03-27-2013, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne8661

Wow almost seems pointless to apply for a C&R license.

Just like it has been in kalifornia for a while. I thought about it two years ago until I looked up kalifornia law on them and found C&R's totally neutered here!

Before you know we'll be considering present day kalifornia laws as being lenient!

mrerick · 03-27-2013, 10:27 AM

This law has not passed the Senate yet. This is the one that Bloomberg is paying $12 Million to promote in states where he thinks senators are "on the fence".

It is essential to write your senators in opposition to this proposed law, and do it now.

(Again, apologies to non US members of this board)...

Marc

lew1 · 03-27-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowsix

Just like it has been in kalifornia for a while. I thought about it two years ago until I looked up kalifornia law on them and found C&R's totally neutered here!

Before you know we'll be considering present day kalifornia laws as being lenient!

At least with a C&R (under current Federal rules), you can go to Tulsa, NGD, or other gun shows and legally buy.

mrerick · 03-27-2013, 01:43 PM

I updated my postings in this thread today to reflect the new text in S.649 (which is the bill Reid finally took onto the Senate floor 3/22/2013). Collectors are now included, but gunsmiths are not.

In other ways, the new bill is actually worse, criminalizing transfers to Veterans if you don't know their entire background.

Discussion is at:

http://gunowners.org/a03252013b.htm

Marc

rhinemann · 03-27-2013, 09:18 PM

Hi Marc,
In looking at your pdf file I could not find where collectors are covered. I looked in section 122 but could only see importers, dealers and manufacturers. Could you please tell me which line it list collector's.
Thank you for this thread.

Many thanks
Jeffrey

mrerick · 03-28-2013, 10:05 AM

Hi Jeffery,

In this PDF:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf

See page 17 starting with paragraph "b".

We are now included in the list of valid licensees for sales.

The discussion of transfers is still equivocal. The US Code being modified is at:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...rtI-chap44.pdf

Starting on page 11 of the bill (Section 122 Transfer of Firearms) section "s" that is repealed is the original Brady bill NCIS language found on page 214 of the US Code 922. It then designates the old section "t" on page 215 as the new section "s" and modifies it.

Transfers from a non-licensed person could only take place to a licensed person (as defined by the USC Chapter). That would seem to now include licensed collectors and gunsmiths even though we are not specified as transfer agents.

Licensed collectors are defined in Chapter 44; section 921 on page 203 subsection 12 (left column).

The requirements for sales now explicitly include collector licensees.

Marc

rhinemann · 03-28-2013, 06:19 PM

Hello Marc,
Thank you for the information regarding the purposed new regulations and the up dates that are being presented to the U.S. Senate. I have not found much information on this important topic in printed for public review. Look forward to more updates.

Best Regards,
Jeffrey

03-16-2013, 11:13 AM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	New US Senate SB.649 proposal and C&R Note: This bill is now S.649 (part of the confusing US Congress "shell game"... It was introduced directly to the Senate floor on 3/21/2013 by Harry Reid and his Judiciary committee. Same bad bill, with more added... Link in later post. I know our focus here is on Lugers and generally avoid discussing legislative issues, especially as we are international and not US focused. With apologies to non-US members, I want to share some analysis with US members that have C&R FFL licenses. In addition to the rest of it's draconian content, the language in the recently introduced Federal S.649 effectively interferes with transfer of firearms to and from Gunsmiths with a gunsmith FFL. Wording in this bill corrected the original problem for collectors, and it now includes collectors that are Federally licensed Class 3 Curio and Relic FFL holders. Here's the law as passed into the Senate by the Judiciary Committee 3//21/2013: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf In effect, this new legislation will prevent transfers to and from gunsmiths. I also wonder where the money for beefing up the NCIS system is coming from? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 03-27-2013 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Corrected for new bill and bill text...

03-16-2013, 01:53 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	I also wonder where the $500,000,000 for beefing up the NCIS system is coming from? They will "tax" the gun buyer by making him pay for registration/ transfers and call it a "fee' __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-26-2013, 09:19 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here are more details on the current text of S.374, which has morphed to S.649 as part of the confusing congressional shell game of bills: This is frustrating, especially with Bloomberg paying for deceptively worded ads touting this bill (that sound like pro-gun ads, but that are not)... Ads that show the violation of three of the NRA basic safety principles. The proposed Senate law known as S.649 text is at: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s649 PDF is at: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf If you read it closely, you will see that transfers do not take place through all "licensees"; they take place through "dealers"; "importers" "collectors" and "manufacturers" using NCIS for background checks each time. I wonder when Collectors will gain access to NCIS? You will see that "gunsmiths" are left out of the bill. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 03-27-2013 at 01:42 PM. Reason: Collectors are included in new bill text.

03-27-2013, 10:27 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	This law has not passed the Senate yet. This is the one that Bloomberg is paying $12 Million to promote in states where he thinks senators are "on the fence". It is essential to write your senators in opposition to this proposed law, and do it now. (Again, apologies to non US members of this board)... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-27-2013, 01:43 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I updated my postings in this thread today to reflect the new text in S.649 (which is the bill Reid finally took onto the Senate floor 3/22/2013). Collectors are now included, but gunsmiths are not. In other ways, the new bill is actually worse, criminalizing transfers to Veterans if you don't know their entire background. Discussion is at: http://gunowners.org/a03252013b.htm Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-16-2013, 12:19 PM	#2
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Wow almost seems pointless to apply for a C&R license.

03-27-2013, 09:18 PM	#9
rhinemann User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 66 Thanks: 14 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	Hi Marc, In looking at your pdf file I could not find where collectors are covered. I looked in section 122 but could only see importers, dealers and manufacturers. Could you please tell me which line it list collector's. Thank you for this thread. Many thanks Jeffrey

03-28-2013, 10:05 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Jeffery, In this PDF: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...113s649pcs.pdf See page 17 starting with paragraph "b". We are now included in the list of valid licensees for sales. The discussion of transfers is still equivocal. The US Code being modified is at: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-...rtI-chap44.pdf Starting on page 11 of the bill (Section 122 Transfer of Firearms) section "s" that is repealed is the original Brady bill NCIS language found on page 214 of the US Code 922. It then designates the old section "t" on page 215 as the new section "s" and modifies it. Transfers from a non-licensed person could only take place to a licensed person (as defined by the USC Chapter). That would seem to now include licensed collectors and gunsmiths even though we are not specified as transfer agents. Licensed collectors are defined in Chapter 44; section 921 on page 203 subsection 12 (left column). The requirements for sales now explicitly include collector licensees. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 03-28-2013 at 10:51 AM. Reason: updated reading of law and bill

03-28-2013, 06:19 PM	#11
rhinemann User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 66 Thanks: 14 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	Hello Marc, Thank you for the information regarding the purposed new regulations and the up dates that are being presented to the U.S. Senate. I have not found much information on this important topic in printed for public review. Look forward to more updates. Best Regards, Jeffrey