ID'ing new Luger

[rvance174]

Hello All,

I'm new to Lugers as well as being new to the forum. A few months ago the Luger bug bit, and after my customary far-to-little research I stumbled on a fellow living just a few miles from me with three for sale. A beautiful 1917 Erfurt (I think, he wanted so much I didn't pay much attention) artillery, a nice 1915 DWM, and a 7.65 DWM.

After not being able to get him to budge on the price of the 1915 I ended up buying the 7.65. The pistol appeared in pretty good nick, with everything seeming to function, and the seller claimed that he shot it with no issues years ago when he purchased it. I did note that the barrel on the pistol seemed to have been changed at some point.

The seller told me that this was a 20's vintage police pistol, but since I had already noted several other areas where his knowledge was clearly suspect, I wrote this off as a not true.

But since it is chambered for 7.65 I assumed it to be a commercial pistol, and with no military history I figured I can shoot it to my hearts content without guilt and if I feel like restoring it, hopefully no one will wish a slow death on me. Plus the price was right.

However once I got the weapon home and started to do a little research on the meaning of the various markings I realized I'm not sure this is just the commercial pistol I thought it was, so I'm hoping the experts here can help me decipher things.

The serial number is 492e with the last two digits stamped on all the parts (except the barrel). My understanding is that was only done on the military models.

On the right side of the upper receiver are three symbols; the first appears to be a I or J with a crown, and the second and third are both S's with crowns. In the symbol section on this site it says these are DWM military proofs used from 14-18. However it shows there is supposed to be an eagle to the right of these symbols and it isn't there.

Also, if this was a military pistol wouldn't it have the date stamped on the barrel crown?

As I said it appears that the barrel was changed at some point, as it is not numbered and the finish looks different from the rest of the pistol. However there is a crown/crown/U on the right side of the barrel and another that appears to have been done with the same stamp on the left side of the receiver. I would think this would at least indicate the barrel was changed out in factory, not by some lone gunsmith.

The symbol section lists two C/c/U symbols though neither of them appear to look like the ones on this weapon.

Hopefully the pictures I attach will be legible once this post goes up.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[lugersrkewl]

Welcome

not an expert but Ill take a stab at it for fun while the experts are sleeping.
if its 9mm looks like an imperial 1914-1918 manufacture then reworked by mauser in the early 30's. Then it got stamped for commercial export.
If its .30 luger I dont even have a guess what it .

[rvance174]

The early Mauser rework would explain the C/c/U, right? But as I stated it's a 7.65, so that makes it a civilian, right? But why would it's parts be serial numbered like a military pistol and why would it have what are seemingly military proofs?

I'm hesitant to speculate given that I'm such a rookie when it comes to these pistols, but could it be that at some point it was a 9mm and in some military arsenal, but then re-barrel by Mauser to 7.65 for civilian sale?

But if it was built as a military weapon wouldn't it have the date stamp on the barrel crown? Or could it have been built as a civilian pistol, been drafted into service and changed to 9mm and at that point had the parts numbered and the proofs added, then re-worked back to it's original civilian caliber?

[rvance174]

I'm surprised that I have been unable to find a list of DWM serial numbers showing when the pistols where built and what they were originally built as. Given the popularity of these weapons I thought this would be information that was readily available.

I'm really hoping one of the experts tells me this pistol saw military service, because then I'll be able to completely justify spending the money to have it changed back to 9mm. I'll be restoring history (at least that's what I'll tell my wife)!

[lugersrkewl]

It started life as a ww1 military luger. The chamber date was ground off. Jan C Stills imperial lugers would be a great reference on this its one I dont own. A newly manufactured commercial (civilian ) pistol would have a pre 1920 lazy n nitro proof, commercial serial placement and a serialized original 7.65 barrel to conform with versailles treaty laws.

[rvance174]

Thanks for the input lugersrkewl, I'm chalking that up in the 'this justifies getting the barrel changed' column .

I've read "chamber date ground off" in the description of other pistols but really did not consider it for this one as the barrel crown looks perfect to a novice like me. Anyone know why someone would go to the effort of removing the date but not remove any of the other symbols on the weapon?

[Lugerdoc]

Vance, You indeed do have a "mystry" pistol. It does not appear to have had markings removed or reblued. Staring with that premius, I would spectulate: That it was originally intended to be an Imperial military PO8, but due to the lack of chamber date and final proofings, was not completed by the end of WW1. Mauser later "inherited" these parts and installed a barrel, test fired and proofed sometime between 1930 and 1940 as a commerical product. As far as I known, not a known variation and may have been a production worker's toy. TH

[rvance174]

Thanks for the reply Lugerdoc. Do you know of a source for DWM serial number information? If I can determine that it was a late war production piece that would certainly back your hypothesis.

Great, now I'm not going to be satisfied until I've figured out this things life (or exhausted all options trying).

Going to the range in a little bit to test fire it for the first time so I've got my fingers crossed that everything functions as it should. Also going to work my way through some 60 y/o Romanian 8mm in my Mauser so I will probably end up with ice on my shoulder tonight.

[rhuff]

Forgive me guys if I am incorrect, but to me this is a parts gun. From the photos, if my eyes see them correctly(always a question) the barrel extension/receiver is not numbered to the frame. The toggle train appears to be numbered to the frame, as best that I can tell. We didn't get any photos of the internal parts, so whether those parts match or not, I can't say. It appears as though the takedown bolt is also mismatched to the frame. This is what I see.

[rvance174]

The upper receiver is numbered the same as the frame, 492. In the close-up picture of the left side of the pistol the first two digits of the serial number can be seen behind the C/c/U, the last digit is covered up by the trigger plate.

All the parts except the barrel match.

[rvance174]

Just got back from the range and the accuracy of the little Luger is phenomenal. All the shooting was done standing from 15 yards and I took the first shoot with one hand and (once I brought the pistol on target) my head turned (in case the pistol decided to spontaneously disassemble I figured I'd still be able to see and have one good hand to drive to the hospital). When I turned my head back to the target the first round had hit right in the center of the head of the silhouette. Four magazines later and, with the exception of one flyer that was a result of me experimenting with the trigger, everything was in an eight inch group.

Function was another matter entirely though. Every round failed to eject from the pistol, must of them getting caught by the breach block and pinned against the receiver, though some were still completely in the chamber. I would then work the action by hand and the round would eject and another would chamber without issue.

The seller had given me a very old box of Fiocchi 7.65 ammunition which I assume is the culprit here, not providing enough energy to work the action. However since Fiocchi seems to be the only supplier of reasonably priced .30 Luger these days I'm a little concerned. Hopefully the modern stuff (this box looks every bit of 30 y/o) has a little more punch.

If anyone has other ideas about the cause of the failures to eject, please let me know. And any ammo suggestions are appreciated!

[lugersrkewl]

everyone uses fiocchi. some newer stuff might work better. You might want to check the extractor and ejector for old grease and make sure they are properly lubed. Sometimes a new magazine fixes f.t.e problems in lugers.

[rvance174]

The two magazines that came with it are certainly not the greatest. They're both Ermas and one of them looked like my dog had been chewing on one of the feed lips. A little time with a small block of wood and mallet and I thought I had them pretty straight. When i was shooting the pistol that magazine was no worse then the other, it wouldn't cycle with either. Of course that doesn't mean both mags aren't junk.

New Fiocchi .30 is on order, now I just have to find someone with some Mecgar magazines in stock.

[pitsword]

Looks as though the front sight blade is a replacement patridge type. That was a not uncommon change. Good shooting and enjoy it.

[Lugerdoc]

Some of the above mentioned problem area may be correct, but I would bet that your luger still has it's original 9mm recoil spring installed. I have both orig or new 7.65mm springs available @$15 + $5 S&H. TH

[rvance174]

Lugerdoc, Im sending you an email about the springs and mags.

[Ben M.]

what causes the 'stippling' effect you see on the barrel near the receiver end?

[John Sabato]

IMHO The stippling effect you notice is what I would call "freckling". It is just a form of rust that I would imagine was caused by condensation that occurred in storage. The barrel steel is somewhat different from the rest of the pistol and it was apparently most affected by the moisture since the frame shows no such effect.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by rvance174

The upper receiver is numbered the same as the frame, 492. In the close-up picture of the left side of the pistol the first two digits of the serial number can be seen behind the C/c/U, the last digit is covered up by the trigger plate.

All the parts except the barrel match.

I stand corrected. I could only see 2 numbers on the receiver. Glad that I was incorrect and all numbers match for your Luger. As Tom(lugerdoc) has stated, these handguns really are spring sensitive. It took me a while to get my 1921 DWM straightened out where it was reliable with fiocchi and my reloads.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Ben M.

what causes the 'stippling' effect you see on the barrel near the receiver end?

The oxidation of steel! Ambient moisture in the air/condensation aids/accelerates the process by providing a dielectric situation on the surface, and the rust marks, pits, etc. on a pistol can vary by just how the moisture is introduced--i.e., condensation, spattering, or immersion--you'll see different patterns of damage. This one may have been stored in a holster, the freckling of rust damage looks like condensation to me...