Spandau At Simpson's LTD...

03-02-2002, 04:27 PM

Took a side trip to Simpson's LTD Collector's Firearms in Galesburg, IL yesterday (yep,another client flew me to Terre Haute, IN on business...).

I think this is the biggest gun shop I have ever been to...Lots of interesting gun besides the lugers...

Hoped to look at a couple of lugers listed on their web site; but the pistols were already sold...(1929 Swiss Berns and some Artillerys).

It looks like half of the luger room is empty, Bob mentioned it's getting harder to keep his inventory up.

Did see a Spandau luger for ~ $ 8,500.00 or so...

Of course, I wouldn't be able to tell a real thing or not; being a luger novice...

As anyone seen this Spandau in person ?

tom · 03-02-2002, 05:20 PM

The Spandau you saw is a well known and documented piece, formerly in the fabeled Alexander Montgomery collection. It is one of about 4 known in the US and is owned by Mike Morris of Bulverde Texas. It is as unquestionally genuine as any Spandau.

Hope this helps,

Tom

Uncle Mike · 03-03-2002, 11:10 AM

Hi,Blue Book says( pg 841,22nd edition) that Spandau Lugers are all fake.I've allways wondered about this as Aarron Davis treats it as a recognized variation.Still treats it as controversial.Regards MC.

tom · 03-03-2002, 11:40 AM

Judging from the Bluebooks accuracy in other areas, I'd be *very* skeptical of accepting their opinion as gospel.

The problem with the Spandau pieces is their extreme rarity makes them more of an oddity than a real variant. The history on these guns is extremely murky to say the least and to the best of my knowledge, no documentation has survived to conclusively prove they were ever manufactured.

The following is PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART, but based on many years of managing military logistics.

THE FOLLOWING IS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART.

What appears to be the most likely origin of these guns from both a historical and military logistical perspective is they are reworks. I believe that the royal rifle factory at Spandau had some excess production capacity and as a result, someone on the General Staff suggested a pilot program of doing Revision Commission re-works there. All Spandau lugers are Revision Commission marked, if I remember correctly. Please, bear in mind, THIS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART.

In my hypothetical scenario, some proof of concept reworks are produced in a pilot program to provide sample product to whomever was the approval authority for such a change-probably the Chief of Ordinance or Supply-whoever had staff cognizance over small arms supply and maintenance.

These proof of concept pieces would logically have been marked to differenciate them from "ordinary" revisions commission reworks. The marking was the Spandau stamp and Imperial crown on the toggle.

For reasons that are unknown, but probably having to do with the collapse of the war effort, the program never got beyond proof of concept phase and the few pieces that were produced found their way into general supply stores, were kept as souvenirs, or ????

If any forumistas has a plausible hypothesis, I would enjoy reading it.

Tom

03-03-2002, 12:05 PM

Sorry,

I think the Spandau asking price was $ 15,000.00, not $ 8,500.00 as stated in my earlier thread. It is listed on the Simpson web site in their "one-of-a kind" listing category.

When you are looking at 200+ lugers with price stickers, it all blends together...

My Aaron Davis book (1997) lists at "$ 13,000 and up regardless of condition".

My Michael Reese book (2001 update) has Ralph Shattuck's valuation at $ 13K from vg to mint range.

03-03-2002, 12:38 PM

I asked previously if anyone had heard or spoken with C Kenyon regarding the Spandau lugers. I have heard that he claims direct knowledge on the manufacture of these lugers here in the US in the 1950s.

From my experience in military contracting and repair work, I find it plausible that a factory would be contacted to undertake a rework program. The expectation would be that field returned guns would be in contracts separate from factory reject reworks, or reworks of captured weapons. At least, I would expect those to be separate projects as they would differ in systematic ways across the contracts (yep, armchair speculation here). The Spandau's all look to be recent manufacture (17-18 dates) so would have been virtually new and I would suspect factory rejects or a single large damaged shipment (severe damage such as a supply ship sinking such that a factory rebuilding,following failed inspection of several lugers, would be in order before issuance).

If Spandau had been contracted to make new lugers, they would not evidence the ability to make them by providing 300 reworked Erfurt guns. There would be new made guns of new made parts. It puzzles me why they would rework a bunch of guns and make new or completely restamp toggles when the guns are not "Spandau" made. Additionaly, Spandau, inspection stamps would seem more appropriate because that would correctly indicate the work done--parts replacement and inspection of rebuilt gun. Why go to trouble making spandau toggles--few would need replacement and they would suggest the gun was Spandau manufacture--not true.

Perhaps the Spandaus were actually the product of a few Spandau parts including toggles and a large body of parts in excess inventory from Erfurt or DWM. The Erfurt factory might have had lots of extra parts but lacked critical parts (such as toggle shortage) to complete the guns. But, then, why not just make some toggles and parts and send them to Erfurt so Erfurt can make the lugers?

Much of the Spandau luger story is difficult to fit into my understanding of manufacturing.

Johnny Peppers · 03-03-2002, 01:40 PM

I think a lot of people have trouble understanding the existence of a pistol from an arsenal that had no manufacturing facilities for that particular pistol. If the pistols were indeed reworks, the simple Spandau C/K proof would have been sufficient for military purposes. To create a die to mark the toggle, and the associated extra work to apply the marking would have been a waste of time when Germany was trying to speed up production.

I think even Jan Still indicates that even if the Spandau is legit, the survival rate for such a low production pistol is amazingly high.

03-03-2002, 09:31 PM

Have any Spandau's turned up in the Russian imports? For that matter, I never saw any HK's in the Russian imports, either, but there must have been a few--where did they go?

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-03-2002, 09:50 PM

Where did the thousands of Hsc"s, PPK"s, PP"s, Sauer 38H"setc go!! I don"t believe any have been imported.

Lonnie

03-05-2002, 12:21 AM

Good point. They seem to bump up against import problems due to size--or so I understand. Would be nice to see original ppk's imported.

03-02-2002, 04:27 PM	#1
Wm. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Spandau At Simpson's LTD... Took a side trip to Simpson's LTD Collector's Firearms in Galesburg, IL yesterday (yep,another client flew me to Terre Haute, IN on business...). I think this is the biggest gun shop I have ever been to...Lots of interesting gun besides the lugers... Hoped to look at a couple of lugers listed on their web site; but the pistols were already sold...(1929 Swiss Berns and some Artillerys). It looks like half of the luger room is empty, Bob mentioned it's getting harder to keep his inventory up. Did see a Spandau luger for ~ $ 8,500.00 or so... Of course, I wouldn't be able to tell a real thing or not; being a luger novice... As anyone seen this Spandau in person ?

03-02-2002, 05:20 PM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Spandau At Simpson's LTD... The Spandau you saw is a well known and documented piece, formerly in the fabeled Alexander Montgomery collection. It is one of about 4 known in the US and is owned by Mike Morris of Bulverde Texas. It is as unquestionally genuine as any Spandau. Hope this helps, Tom

03-03-2002, 11:10 AM	#3
Uncle Mike User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What about Blue Book?. Hi,Blue Book says( pg 841,22nd edition) that Spandau Lugers are all fake.I've allways wondered about this as Aarron Davis treats it as a recognized variation.Still treats it as controversial.Regards MC.

03-03-2002, 11:40 AM	#4
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: What about Blue Book?. Judging from the Bluebooks accuracy in other areas, I'd be very skeptical of accepting their opinion as gospel. The problem with the Spandau pieces is their extreme rarity makes them more of an oddity than a real variant. The history on these guns is extremely murky to say the least and to the best of my knowledge, no documentation has survived to conclusively prove they were ever manufactured. The following is PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART, but based on many years of managing military logistics. THE FOLLOWING IS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART. What appears to be the most likely origin of these guns from both a historical and military logistical perspective is they are reworks. I believe that the royal rifle factory at Spandau had some excess production capacity and as a result, someone on the General Staff suggested a pilot program of doing Revision Commission re-works there. All Spandau lugers are Revision Commission marked, if I remember correctly. Please, bear in mind, THIS IS PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART. In my hypothetical scenario, some proof of concept reworks are produced in a pilot program to provide sample product to whomever was the approval authority for such a change-probably the Chief of Ordinance or Supply-whoever had staff cognizance over small arms supply and maintenance. These proof of concept pieces would logically have been marked to differenciate them from "ordinary" revisions commission reworks. The marking was the Spandau stamp and Imperial crown on the toggle. For reasons that are unknown, but probably having to do with the collapse of the war effort, the program never got beyond proof of concept phase and the few pieces that were produced found their way into general supply stores, were kept as souvenirs, or ???? If any forumistas has a plausible hypothesis, I would enjoy reading it. Tom

03-03-2002, 12:05 PM	#5
William J. "Pete" Ebbink Guest Posts: n/a	Asking Price Correction... Sorry, I think the Spandau asking price was $ 15,000.00, not $ 8,500.00 as stated in my earlier thread. It is listed on the Simpson web site in their "one-of-a kind" listing category. When you are looking at 200+ lugers with price stickers, it all blends together... My Aaron Davis book (1997) lists at "$ 13,000 and up regardless of condition". My Michael Reese book (2001 update) has Ralph Shattuck's valuation at $ 13K from vg to mint range.

03-03-2002, 12:38 PM	#6
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What about Blue Book?. I asked previously if anyone had heard or spoken with C Kenyon regarding the Spandau lugers. I have heard that he claims direct knowledge on the manufacture of these lugers here in the US in the 1950s. From my experience in military contracting and repair work, I find it plausible that a factory would be contacted to undertake a rework program. The expectation would be that field returned guns would be in contracts separate from factory reject reworks, or reworks of captured weapons. At least, I would expect those to be separate projects as they would differ in systematic ways across the contracts (yep, armchair speculation here). The Spandau's all look to be recent manufacture (17-18 dates) so would have been virtually new and I would suspect factory rejects or a single large damaged shipment (severe damage such as a supply ship sinking such that a factory rebuilding,following failed inspection of several lugers, would be in order before issuance). If Spandau had been contracted to make new lugers, they would not evidence the ability to make them by providing 300 reworked Erfurt guns. There would be new made guns of new made parts. It puzzles me why they would rework a bunch of guns and make new or completely restamp toggles when the guns are not "Spandau" made. Additionaly, Spandau, inspection stamps would seem more appropriate because that would correctly indicate the work done--parts replacement and inspection of rebuilt gun. Why go to trouble making spandau toggles--few would need replacement and they would suggest the gun was Spandau manufacture--not true. Perhaps the Spandaus were actually the product of a few Spandau parts including toggles and a large body of parts in excess inventory from Erfurt or DWM. The Erfurt factory might have had lots of extra parts but lacked critical parts (such as toggle shortage) to complete the guns. But, then, why not just make some toggles and parts and send them to Erfurt so Erfurt can make the lugers? Much of the Spandau luger story is difficult to fit into my understanding of manufacturing.

03-03-2002, 01:40 PM	#7
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: What about Blue Book?. I think a lot of people have trouble understanding the existence of a pistol from an arsenal that had no manufacturing facilities for that particular pistol. If the pistols were indeed reworks, the simple Spandau C/K proof would have been sufficient for military purposes. To create a die to mark the toggle, and the associated extra work to apply the marking would have been a waste of time when Germany was trying to speed up production. I think even Jan Still indicates that even if the Spandau is legit, the survival rate for such a low production pistol is amazingly high.

03-03-2002, 09:31 PM	#8
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What about Blue Book?. Have any Spandau's turned up in the Russian imports? For that matter, I never saw any HK's in the Russian imports, either, but there must have been a few--where did they go?

03-03-2002, 09:50 PM	#9
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: What about Blue Book?. Where did the thousands of Hsc"s, PPK"s, PP"s, Sauer 38H"setc go!! I don"t believe any have been imported. Lonnie

03-05-2002, 12:21 AM	#10
mlm Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What about Blue Book?. Good point. They seem to bump up against import problems due to size--or so I understand. Would be nice to see original ppk's imported.