European market

JRS · 10-20-2012, 04:33 PM

I have noticed that when Gerben Van Vlimmeren posts pictures of his Lugers on the forum they all appear to be in mint condition. Does that mean that the European market is the best choice for Lugers and the U.S. gets the step-child leftovers? Is there a central European source for Luger purchases and can it be accessed on the internet?

swampsavage · 10-20-2012, 04:46 PM

Who knows how many WWII and even prior era P08's are still stashed away over there. When I did a tour in Germany in the mid 60's we could buy WW1 Artilleries, Navies, etc., for $75 to $125, that had been hidden from Hitler's gun ban. I was also offered 4 presentation models in the case for $250 each. I never had that kind of money so didn't even get to see them but the Occupation troops in the 50's didn't get everything.

Edward Tinker · 10-20-2012, 04:48 PM

I would think that since most collectors in europe have to pick and choose, much more than us, they would show their best?

I have seen, in person a couple of european collections and they look like american collections, in the sense, good and not so good

I have a couple of not so nice pieces, I am disinclined to show them on the forum?

I would think most collectors are the same way, as the vast majority of people here on the forum, have never shown anything they own.

Ed

Vlim · 10-20-2012, 05:33 PM

I wouldn't describe them all as 'mint condition', photos tend to hide a lot of blemishes.

I do try to avoid purchasing 'rust' (with the exception of Dutch lugers

), though. Prices in Europe, particularly because of the stricter gun laws, are usually much lower, which also helps one to sift through the offerings a little better. Also, it is possible to take advantage of the differences in local gun laws, which also affects prices. Guns that are virtually unsaleable in one country, can be owned in another, provided the paper work is in order. This means you can buy them at an interesting price in country #1, then export them to country #2.

I broke my own 'law' once, and I keep that little gun as a reminder: condition, condition, condition.

A good place to start is the German auction site 'Egun'. Another interesting auction house is 'Hermann Historica' in Munich.
And, of course, if you look for something specific, contact the European collectors directly.

Ben M. · 10-20-2012, 09:07 PM

i have been told that european collectors do not see refurbished guns the same way as we do in the states so refinished guns over there are not as frowned upon as in the usa. not sure if that is true, however. maybe some of our overseas members could comment.

Vlim · 10-21-2012, 05:02 AM

Hi Ben,

I cannot speak for other collectors, but to me it depends on the heritage of the gun. Dutch lugers went through a periodic refurbishing program while in service, as were Swiss, Austrian, Portuguese, Norwegian and just about any military pistol, really. Many VoPo lugers were repaired and rebuilt while in DDR service.

Many of those guns were used until the 1970s and 1980s, so if you buy one of those, you also get the refurbishing history as part of the package.

Guns that have been refinished while in private hands, 'restoration' attempts, and the like, I tend to avoid, unless they are a really rare or an interesting variation.

So it all depends on the legacy / history of the gun. Also take in mind that the pickings are a lot smaller here than in the US.

Here is a small list of refurbs that are collectible:
-Dutch lugers. Used, used, used, and then some. Makes a mint Dutch luger look suspicious

-Swiss military pistols. Will show repairs and refinishing.
-Portuguese lugers. Used until the late 1970s, periodically refurbished.
-East-German guns. Rebuilt and refurbished.
-Austrian pistols. Kept into service until the 1980s, repaired with donor parts.
-Norwegian pistols. Kept into service until the 1980s. Spare parts produced by the Kongsberg arsenal.
-West-German police guns dating from pre-1945. Rare and refurbished.

And the odd ones:
Mauser Parabellum pistols were rebuilt/altered by the factory to suit certain orders.
Mauser HSc pistols were rebuilt/altered by the factory to suit certain orders.
Mauser P08 pistols refurbished in 1997-1998 for commercial sales by Mauser.

10-20-2012, 04:48 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	I would think that since most collectors in europe have to pick and choose, much more than us, they would show their best? I have seen, in person a couple of european collections and they look like american collections, in the sense, good and not so good I have a couple of not so nice pieces, I am disinclined to show them on the forum? I would think most collectors are the same way, as the vast majority of people here on the forum, have never shown anything they own. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-20-2012, 05:33 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	I wouldn't describe them all as 'mint condition', photos tend to hide a lot of blemishes. I do try to avoid purchasing 'rust' (with the exception of Dutch lugers ), though. Prices in Europe, particularly because of the stricter gun laws, are usually much lower, which also helps one to sift through the offerings a little better. Also, it is possible to take advantage of the differences in local gun laws, which also affects prices. Guns that are virtually unsaleable in one country, can be owned in another, provided the paper work is in order. This means you can buy them at an interesting price in country #1, then export them to country #2. I broke my own 'law' once, and I keep that little gun as a reminder: condition, condition, condition. A good place to start is the German auction site 'Egun'. Another interesting auction house is 'Hermann Historica' in Munich. And, of course, if you look for something specific, contact the European collectors directly. Attached Thumbnails

10-20-2012, 04:33 PM	#1
JRS User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA 23452 Posts: 81 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	European market I have noticed that when Gerben Van Vlimmeren posts pictures of his Lugers on the forum they all appear to be in mint condition. Does that mean that the European market is the best choice for Lugers and the U.S. gets the step-child leftovers? Is there a central European source for Luger purchases and can it be accessed on the internet?

10-20-2012, 04:46 PM	#2
swampsavage User Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Jackson County, GA Posts: 43 Thanks: 5 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Who knows how many WWII and even prior era P08's are still stashed away over there. When I did a tour in Germany in the mid 60's we could buy WW1 Artilleries, Navies, etc., for $75 to $125, that had been hidden from Hitler's gun ban. I was also offered 4 presentation models in the case for $250 each. I never had that kind of money so didn't even get to see them but the Occupation troops in the 50's didn't get everything. __________________ John

10-20-2012, 09:07 PM	#5
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 498 Thanks: 96 Thanked 145 Times in 90 Posts	i have been told that european collectors do not see refurbished guns the same way as we do in the states so refinished guns over there are not as frowned upon as in the usa. not sure if that is true, however. maybe some of our overseas members could comment.

10-21-2012, 05:02 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Ben, I cannot speak for other collectors, but to me it depends on the heritage of the gun. Dutch lugers went through a periodic refurbishing program while in service, as were Swiss, Austrian, Portuguese, Norwegian and just about any military pistol, really. Many VoPo lugers were repaired and rebuilt while in DDR service. Many of those guns were used until the 1970s and 1980s, so if you buy one of those, you also get the refurbishing history as part of the package. Guns that have been refinished while in private hands, 'restoration' attempts, and the like, I tend to avoid, unless they are a really rare or an interesting variation. So it all depends on the legacy / history of the gun. Also take in mind that the pickings are a lot smaller here than in the US. Here is a small list of refurbs that are collectible: -Dutch lugers. Used, used, used, and then some. Makes a mint Dutch luger look suspicious -Swiss military pistols. Will show repairs and refinishing. -Portuguese lugers. Used until the late 1970s, periodically refurbished. -East-German guns. Rebuilt and refurbished. -Austrian pistols. Kept into service until the 1980s, repaired with donor parts. -Norwegian pistols. Kept into service until the 1980s. Spare parts produced by the Kongsberg arsenal. -West-German police guns dating from pre-1945. Rare and refurbished. And the odd ones: Mauser Parabellum pistols were rebuilt/altered by the factory to suit certain orders. Mauser HSc pistols were rebuilt/altered by the factory to suit certain orders. Mauser P08 pistols refurbished in 1997-1998 for commercial sales by Mauser.