Erma 22 carbine..?

Lukedog · 04-06-2012, 09:03 AM

How is the reliability for this Luger clone?About how much are they worth? w/box and papers.

Thanks,

Wes

I hope I posted on the right board?

spartacus38 · 04-06-2012, 10:46 AM

Reliability:Terrible
Worth:I would not waste my money on another one.
Bob

padredan · 04-06-2012, 11:12 AM

i owned one along time ago, but not a carbine, it never would work right. It never fired a full magazine without a jam, failure to feed extract you name it, would never own another one. The blue book says 500.00 for 100 percent and add if it has the leatherite case.

ithacaartist · 04-06-2012, 11:27 AM

John,

I'd say this area is the correct venue for your question.

I have several Erma .22's, the most recently obtained is the ET-22 which has a checkered forestock and an 11+" barrel, for which I paid around $350. Gunbroker has a couple listed in the $600+ range, and although some are with box, papers, etc., I personally would not buy one for that much.

Their reputation is not the best because most models are diecast frame and uppers, which is not as durable as steel. One could anticipate that this would lead to the early retirement of the pistols, due to wear. The front toggle links are susceptible to breakage--I've already broken two; one on each of my La's--due to the pot metal construction and poor design of the casting which is quite thin in the area the breakage occurs. No big problem, factory newbies available from Bob's Gun Parts @$35; but I wouldn't want to break one every day, nor continue to shoot it with a load which would result in this.

Ermas are magazine sensitive, and the mags that I've found to be the best are original factory in the best shape possible. This means that the feed lips have not been bent by (ab)use and the spring is still strong. Triple k or other aftermarket mags will be a crapshoot because the feed lips, followers, and springs are slightly different compared to an Erma mag. Some are listed on GB as well, but I will not pay more than $35-40 for one, regardless of condition. A few in good condition are listed for much more, but I consider them overpriced.

Ermas are ammo sensitive. We've discussed this on some fairly recent posts. The Erma 22 action needs a round with enough oomph to cycle the action completely, but too energetic a round will beat the mechanism to death quickly. So, one must experiment to find the mfgr., format, and load that his/her pistol functions the best with. Mine seem to like 40 gr. slugs and an fps rating between 1000 and 1200, though this may be overkill for the ET because of its longer bbl. High velocity rounds will work, like the Velocitor and Stinger, but I think it was the few experiments with Stingers that broke those toggles. The difference is audible!

I have shot a couple of mags through mine and although it seems a little more forgiving than the La-22's, it is still mag and ammo fussy. I have not shot it enough to establish its ammo preference, but it seemed to handle CCI sub-sonic and Mini-Mags.

Whether you want it as a shooter or collectible would perhaps make a difference in what you'd want to pay for one. A pristeen boxed rig with original paperwork and accessories, if any, would be the most "collectible", for sure, but they are a minor collectible. I wouldn't buy one for an investment at this point, preferring instead to spend the same money on a real Luger, albeit a shooter in this price range. If you want one for a shooter, get one cheap, don't sweat the cosmetics, and shoot the H-E-double hockey sticks out of it. If your intent, as mine was, is to gain experience in ferreting out problematic aspects of a fussy little gun's function as a challenge, you are on the right track. The Erma's toggle action differs from a real Luger's in that the breech is not locked by the toggle train--it is a blowback, and the toggle jumping up and down is effectively a cosmetic thing, alternative to a slide. The actions are similar enough to present the same sorts of problems you'd find in the Luger system, in sotr of a concentrated way. The boys above are correct: lots of failures--feed, fire, eject, stovepipe jams, etc. until you get it dialed in with a good mag and the ammo it finds tasty! Even then, do not expect 100% reliability.

If you made it this far, I hope this helps.

David Parker

TheRomanhistorian · 04-06-2012, 11:28 AM

Hi Luke,

You might look at some posts made by myself and Ithacaartist, though he's been experimenting with the full size Erma Luger clones more than I have (I only have a single 'baby' KGP-69 .22 Luger clone from Erma which are supposed to be more reliable than the full size models like the carbine). They're not held in huge regard in general due to their reliability issues and materials (not the best metals) and priced accordingly. I only paid $300 for mine, for example, and I don't know how many informed people (e.g. people from here) would pay more than that. The KGP models, though smaller, are supposed to be marginally better in quality due to more of the parts being in higher quality metals but I think they made up a very minor part of the production in later years.

Mine performs excellently with zero jams or feeding problems when I use the CCI Tactical .22 ammunition (1200 fps with a 40 grain copper plated bullet). I haven't been to the range in some time so I haven't tested standard velocity like I have been planning to but I will when I go next week for my birthday.

Lukedog · 04-06-2012, 04:58 PM

Thanks for the input guys..I think I'll stay away from it.

sheepherder · 04-06-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

...factory newbies available from Bob's Gun Parts...

Got a link??? Google shows just a bit over a zillion Bob's Gun Parts...

rhuff · 04-06-2012, 07:13 PM

I will have to play the "devil's advocate". I have owned my two Erma Carbine .22 since the very early 1980s. They were both purchased new, so no "bubba" did any gunsmithing on them. They were complete with box, etc.

My Ermas are pretty dependable once I found the ammo that they liked (not high velocity type). What is interesting is that one can NOT mix the two mags up, or you really have a jam-o-matic in both guns.

Simpson's has a LNIB with everything, and I believe that he is asking $995.00!!! He hasn't sold it, and it has been advertised for some time now. I have to run my Ermas pretty wet with lube, and keep them clean, like my real Lugers.

ithacaartist · 04-08-2012, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Got a link??? Google shows just a bit over a zillion Bob's Gun Parts...

Here ya go. http://www.gun-parts.com/index.html/
More Erma ET-22 parts at Sarco.

Quote:

...once I found the ammo that they liked (not high velocity type).

rhuff, what ammo do yours like?

DP

rhuff · 04-08-2012, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Here ya go. http://www.gun-parts.com/index.html/
More Erma ET-22 parts at Sarco.

rhuff, what ammo do yours like?

DP

The very reasonably priced (read cheap) Federal bulk plated 22cal. They also like the old Western Mark IV super match, but this ammo is sort of hard to find. It seems like one of them even did pretty well with the Winchester WildCat, but not positive on that.

Neither liked the subsonic(expected) or the Blazer .22. I must have tried some others, but I just don't remember(old brain).

04-06-2012, 09:03 AM	#1
Lukedog User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Erma 22 carbine..? How is the reliability for this Luger clone?About how much are they worth? w/box and papers. Thanks, Wes I hope I posted on the right board?

04-06-2012, 11:12 AM	#3
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	i owned one along time ago, but not a carbine, it never would work right. It never fired a full magazine without a jam, failure to feed extract you name it, would never own another one. The blue book says 500.00 for 100 percent and add if it has the leatherite case. __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

04-06-2012, 11:28 AM	#5
TheRomanhistorian User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 301 Thanks: 170 Thanked 88 Times in 64 Posts	Hi Luke, You might look at some posts made by myself and Ithacaartist, though he's been experimenting with the full size Erma Luger clones more than I have (I only have a single 'baby' KGP-69 .22 Luger clone from Erma which are supposed to be more reliable than the full size models like the carbine). They're not held in huge regard in general due to their reliability issues and materials (not the best metals) and priced accordingly. I only paid $300 for mine, for example, and I don't know how many informed people (e.g. people from here) would pay more than that. The KGP models, though smaller, are supposed to be marginally better in quality due to more of the parts being in higher quality metals but I think they made up a very minor part of the production in later years. Mine performs excellently with zero jams or feeding problems when I use the CCI Tactical .22 ammunition (1200 fps with a 40 grain copper plated bullet). I haven't been to the range in some time so I haven't tested standard velocity like I have been planning to but I will when I go next week for my birthday. __________________ Michael Nos morituri te salutant - Supposed saying of the gladiators to the emperor ('We, who are about to die, salute you.') 'We are the lantern bearers, my friend; for us to keep something burning, to carry what light we can forward into the darkness and the wind' - From Rosemary Sutcliff's The Lantern Bearers Last edited by TheRomanhistorian; 04-06-2012 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Edit: I see Ithacaartist posted right before me, he's chock full of Erma info!

04-06-2012, 04:58 PM	#6
Lukedog User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 10 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Thanks for the input guys..I think I'll stay away from it.

04-06-2012, 10:46 AM	#2
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Reliability:Terrible Worth:I would not waste my money on another one. Bob

04-06-2012, 11:27 AM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,610 Times in 1,378 Posts	John, I'd say this area is the correct venue for your question. I have several Erma .22's, the most recently obtained is the ET-22 which has a checkered forestock and an 11+" barrel, for which I paid around $350. Gunbroker has a couple listed in the $600+ range, and although some are with box, papers, etc., I personally would not buy one for that much. Their reputation is not the best because most models are diecast frame and uppers, which is not as durable as steel. One could anticipate that this would lead to the early retirement of the pistols, due to wear. The front toggle links are susceptible to breakage--I've already broken two; one on each of my La's--due to the pot metal construction and poor design of the casting which is quite thin in the area the breakage occurs. No big problem, factory newbies available from Bob's Gun Parts @$35; but I wouldn't want to break one every day, nor continue to shoot it with a load which would result in this. Ermas are magazine sensitive, and the mags that I've found to be the best are original factory in the best shape possible. This means that the feed lips have not been bent by (ab)use and the spring is still strong. Triple k or other aftermarket mags will be a crapshoot because the feed lips, followers, and springs are slightly different compared to an Erma mag. Some are listed on GB as well, but I will not pay more than $35-40 for one, regardless of condition. A few in good condition are listed for much more, but I consider them overpriced. Ermas are ammo sensitive. We've discussed this on some fairly recent posts. The Erma 22 action needs a round with enough oomph to cycle the action completely, but too energetic a round will beat the mechanism to death quickly. So, one must experiment to find the mfgr., format, and load that his/her pistol functions the best with. Mine seem to like 40 gr. slugs and an fps rating between 1000 and 1200, though this may be overkill for the ET because of its longer bbl. High velocity rounds will work, like the Velocitor and Stinger, but I think it was the few experiments with Stingers that broke those toggles. The difference is audible! I have shot a couple of mags through mine and although it seems a little more forgiving than the La-22's, it is still mag and ammo fussy. I have not shot it enough to establish its ammo preference, but it seemed to handle CCI sub-sonic and Mini-Mags. Whether you want it as a shooter or collectible would perhaps make a difference in what you'd want to pay for one. A pristeen boxed rig with original paperwork and accessories, if any, would be the most "collectible", for sure, but they are a minor collectible. I wouldn't buy one for an investment at this point, preferring instead to spend the same money on a real Luger, albeit a shooter in this price range. If you want one for a shooter, get one cheap, don't sweat the cosmetics, and shoot the H-E-double hockey sticks out of it. If your intent, as mine was, is to gain experience in ferreting out problematic aspects of a fussy little gun's function as a challenge, you are on the right track. The Erma's toggle action differs from a real Luger's in that the breech is not locked by the toggle train--it is a blowback, and the toggle jumping up and down is effectively a cosmetic thing, alternative to a slide. The actions are similar enough to present the same sorts of problems you'd find in the Luger system, in sotr of a concentrated way. The boys above are correct: lots of failures--feed, fire, eject, stovepipe jams, etc. until you get it dialed in with a good mag and the ammo it finds tasty! Even then, do not expect 100% reliability. If you made it this far, I hope this helps. David Parker

04-06-2012, 07:13 PM	#8
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,305 Thanks: 2,735 Thanked 991 Times in 727 Posts	I will have to play the "devil's advocate". I have owned my two Erma Carbine .22 since the very early 1980s. They were both purchased new, so no "bubba" did any gunsmithing on them. They were complete with box, etc. My Ermas are pretty dependable once I found the ammo that they liked (not high velocity type). What is interesting is that one can NOT mix the two mags up, or you really have a jam-o-matic in both guns. Simpson's has a LNIB with everything, and I believe that he is asking $995.00!!! He hasn't sold it, and it has been advertised for some time now. I have to run my Ermas pretty wet with lube, and keep them clean, like my real Lugers.