Anyone disassembled a Borchardt?

TennBill2 · 05-04-2011, 04:47 PM

My question has specifically to do with how the dust covers are retained. I'm guessing here......somehow, I think, the inner part of the frame had to have been recessed so that the 'T' bolt portion was flush when the covers were in place. Otherwise it appears the roller bearings couldn't clear the inside during cocking/recoil. I can't figure how they could mill the inside to do that. Never having seen the insides, I have no clue what they did. Any thoughts, ideas, facts, opinions, ...or SWAG (scientific wild as...ed guess)? Bill

alanint · 05-04-2011, 06:06 PM

If memory serves, you are supposed to lift the spring steel lip, which is curved up, off the first raised detent and swing it over the second raised detent and the spring steel cover will lift out, but I would wait for more sage advice..

sheepherder · 05-04-2011, 06:38 PM

Looking at Tafel2 from the Borchardt owners manual, that T-thingie can't be very big...

TennBill2 · 05-04-2011, 07:04 PM

Probably should have explained more, this is one I'm building. The 'T' lug would be about 3/16's x 1/4", I'd say. The rectangular hole, in the frame, running lengthwise., It's the inside that's got me bamboozaled. The pic herein is my build, The pic above off the net.

Ron Wood · 05-04-2011, 07:52 PM

Does this help?

TennBill2 · 05-04-2011, 10:32 PM

It helps to the extent it verifies what I thought of the dust covers construction. The pic with the cover off indicates the rollers seem to butt up against the interior walls of the frame, which is how I made mine. The question is how the interior of the frame was milled. That is, the lugs/'T' lug, whatever you call it, seemingly must be flush with the interior frame wall. But, how the heck to drill, mill, gouge or otherwise make a recess. That, or I'm completely missing something. The only way I can even think to do it is to go in with a 'ball' shaped diamond bit on my dremel flex shaft and just 'hog' it out! Would work I guess, but sloppy, to say the least. Thanks though, Ron, for those pics! Bill

tomaustin · 05-05-2011, 12:08 AM

be sure and let me know first, so i can get out of town.....

Wilhelm · 05-05-2011, 02:27 AM

Somebody needs to do a photo essay on one of these like I did on the Jager. I think it would be invaluable to people doing research. Hint....hint.

TennBill2 · 05-05-2011, 09:08 AM

Heck yes, the first chance I get! I suspect at this point, the value of an original is such, no one would want to chance breaking a part. The design is really pretty straight forward though. I have only fired primered shells (30Mauser) to check head space/firing pin. Not sure of the right mainspring tension just yet, so will start with very soft loads. I think it actually feels better in the carbine roll than as a pistol......just my opinion. And, it would be great to see 'photo essay', these will be lost to history. Though this has been very time consuming, it's less complicated than the first wheellock I built. I'll bet a assembled, disassembled, filed, remade parts a hundred times! The first time it fired, I just stood there....it taking several seconds to realize what had happened.

TennBill2 · 05-27-2011, 08:58 PM

I found the only way to do this was to 'mill' out a recess inside the frame. How they originally machined this is beyond me! My cover rotates about 90 degrees throught the 'slot'. The 'T' is flush to the inside, in the recess, so that the rollers swing by. I turned the 'T' in 2 parts on the lathe and ground the sides, then silver soldered the 'T' lug. I have still to bend the lip and make/drill the retaining pin. Still the buffer spring to be figured out.

tomaustin · 05-28-2011, 12:08 AM

...tom

Ron Wood · 05-28-2011, 12:34 AM

The T-lug on the Borchardt is actually peened over on the outside of the spring plate to fasten it. I once was handed a nearly pristine Borchardt that some ham-handed individual had attempted to replace the spring plate incorrectly and torqued the T-lug out of alignment. Using a pair of smooth jaw pliers I was able to rotate it back into the proper orientation but I was sweating BBs the whole time. Nothing like risking breaking a part on a $25K+ gun to get your undivided attention.

Bill, I am in awe of your machining skills and reverse-engineering ability. You are really talented.

sheepherder · 05-28-2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Bill, I am in awe of your machining skills and reverse-engineering ability. You are really talented.

+ 1

TennBill2 · 05-28-2011, 10:44 AM

Guys for the kind comments! Truly been a labor of love, getting so close now, get more anxious. It was really neat though to have the gun actually fire a cartridge..........primered only, at this point. Ron, I guessed the lug was peened or riveted from pics, but decided silver soldering was easier. They must have had a special jig to do that originally. Though, it seems that would have been problematic over time, repeatedly prying and pivoting the covers for cleaning. Wouldn't it be great to be able to see the actual tooling used!
Another question though. I notice the pin at the bottom rear of the frame. I'm guessing this may be what held the 'buffer spring' in place?

05-04-2011, 04:47 PM	#1
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Anyone disassembled a Borchardt? My question has specifically to do with how the dust covers are retained. I'm guessing here......somehow, I think, the inner part of the frame had to have been recessed so that the 'T' bolt portion was flush when the covers were in place. Otherwise it appears the roller bearings couldn't clear the inside during cocking/recoil. I can't figure how they could mill the inside to do that. Never having seen the insides, I have no clue what they did. Any thoughts, ideas, facts, opinions, ...or SWAG (scientific wild as...ed guess)? Bill Attached Thumbnails

05-04-2011, 06:38 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Looking at Tafel2 from the Borchardt owners manual, that T-thingie can't be very big... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

05-04-2011, 07:04 PM	#4
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Thingy..... Probably should have explained more, this is one I'm building. The 'T' lug would be about 3/16's x 1/4", I'd say. The rectangular hole, in the frame, running lengthwise., It's the inside that's got me bamboozaled. The pic herein is my build, The pic above off the net. Attached Images

05-04-2011, 07:52 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Does this help? Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-04-2011, 10:32 PM	#6
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks! It helps to the extent it verifies what I thought of the dust covers construction. The pic with the cover off indicates the rollers seem to butt up against the interior walls of the frame, which is how I made mine. The question is how the interior of the frame was milled. That is, the lugs/'T' lug, whatever you call it, seemingly must be flush with the interior frame wall. But, how the heck to drill, mill, gouge or otherwise make a recess. That, or I'm completely missing something. The only way I can even think to do it is to go in with a 'ball' shaped diamond bit on my dremel flex shaft and just 'hog' it out! Would work I guess, but sloppy, to say the least. Thanks though, Ron, for those pics! Bill

05-04-2011, 06:06 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	If memory serves, you are supposed to lift the spring steel lip, which is curved up, off the first raised detent and swing it over the second raised detent and the spring steel cover will lift out, but I would wait for more sage advice..

05-05-2011, 12:08 AM	#7
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	hey, bill, you gonna try to fire yours??? be sure and let me know first, so i can get out of town.....

05-05-2011, 02:27 AM	#8
Wilhelm User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 340 Thanks: 43 Thanked 107 Times in 51 Posts	Somebody needs to do a photo essay on one of these like I did on the Jager. I think it would be invaluable to people doing research. Hint....hint. __________________ I promise to be nice and play well with others

05-05-2011, 09:08 AM	#9
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	To Tom! Heck yes, the first chance I get! I suspect at this point, the value of an original is such, no one would want to chance breaking a part. The design is really pretty straight forward though. I have only fired primered shells (30Mauser) to check head space/firing pin. Not sure of the right mainspring tension just yet, so will start with very soft loads. I think it actually feels better in the carbine roll than as a pistol......just my opinion. And, it would be great to see 'photo essay', these will be lost to history. Though this has been very time consuming, it's less complicated than the first wheellock I built. I'll bet a assembled, disassembled, filed, remade parts a hundred times! The first time it fired, I just stood there....it taking several seconds to realize what had happened. Attached Images

05-27-2011, 08:58 PM	#10
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	One cover ..partially done! I found the only way to do this was to 'mill' out a recess inside the frame. How they originally machined this is beyond me! My cover rotates about 90 degrees throught the 'slot'. The 'T' is flush to the inside, in the recess, so that the rollers swing by. I turned the 'T' in 2 parts on the lathe and ground the sides, then silver soldered the 'T' lug. I have still to bend the lip and make/drill the retaining pin. Still the buffer spring to be figured out. Attached Images

05-28-2011, 12:08 AM	#11
tomaustin Lifer X5 Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: texas Posts: 708 Thanks: 87 Thanked 522 Times in 201 Posts	persistence always pays off.....let 'er rip bill ...tom

05-28-2011, 12:34 AM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,989 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The T-lug on the Borchardt is actually peened over on the outside of the spring plate to fasten it. I once was handed a nearly pristine Borchardt that some ham-handed individual had attempted to replace the spring plate incorrectly and torqued the T-lug out of alignment. Using a pair of smooth jaw pliers I was able to rotate it back into the proper orientation but I was sweating BBs the whole time. Nothing like risking breaking a part on a $25K+ gun to get your undivided attention. Bill, I am in awe of your machining skills and reverse-engineering ability. You are really talented. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-28-2011, 10:44 AM	#14
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks... Guys for the kind comments! Truly been a labor of love, getting so close now, get more anxious. It was really neat though to have the gun actually fire a cartridge..........primered only, at this point. Ron, I guessed the lug was peened or riveted from pics, but decided silver soldering was easier. They must have had a special jig to do that originally. Though, it seems that would have been problematic over time, repeatedly prying and pivoting the covers for cleaning. Wouldn't it be great to be able to see the actual tooling used! Another question though. I notice the pin at the bottom rear of the frame. I'm guessing this may be what held the 'buffer spring' in place?