Toggle lock frame hold down thingy?

TennBill2 · 03-01-2011, 11:48 AM

Trying to get an idea exactly how that thing in the frame actually is mounted and what it looks like. Looked at many pics showing the toggle lock but no clear pics of the frame portion. Looks like it was cut/dovetailed in. This is a pic of what I've made thus far for my Borchardt replica. Haven't made a spring yet. Any help? Bill

Vlim · 03-01-2011, 12:13 PM

Hi, yes.

A channel has been milled from top to bottom in the frame. A small piece of metal with a catch at the top is dovetailed into that hole.

alanint · 03-01-2011, 01:02 PM

Bill,

Here are some excellent photos showing exactly what you need..

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/lore...tomatic-pistol

Ron Wood · 03-01-2011, 01:38 PM

Bill,
The catch is actually fit into a "T" shaped slot in the frame rather than a dovetail, and silver soldered in place. I had a loose catch from a 1900 Luger that I wanted to photograph for you, but I can't find the darned thing among all my junk. I will keep looking, but don't hold your breath.
Ron

TennBill2 · 03-01-2011, 06:37 PM

For the referenced pics/site, info, and maybe a 'lucky find', Ron. Making that little lever and machining the toggle was no small task for something that's relatively worthless.......but it's part of the gun. Those were some valuable pics, views I'd not seen before. Don't know how I missed that site, bookmarked now! I sure there is a good German word for that thing, vielleicht: Das Lugerborchardttogglemachininholdendowninfurnichts teil!

sheepherder · 03-01-2011, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennBill2

This is a pic of what I've made thus far for my Borchardt replica.

Please take pics as you go along, and do a step-by-step pictorial of it when you are finished...

TennBill2 · 03-02-2011, 09:26 AM

Pic of the progress thus far. I need to get a fininishing reamer for 30 Mauser to set the head space. I actually reamed it deep with a .30 Luger reamer, so I'll only need a few thou to finish. I will start testing with primed shells, move up slow with soft loads to get the mainspring tension.

alanint · 03-02-2011, 10:02 AM

Amazing project!!

drbuster · 03-02-2011, 10:19 AM

Amazing! I'm surprised you're only making one. To go to all that skillful "trouble" I would think at least 2-3 "copies" should be made. I think you would have a market to sell one or two. Problem is, what price would you have to charge to defray the costs of time and material?

TennBill2 · 03-02-2011, 10:53 AM

I'm not sure which has been the most difficult, collecting information, making patterns, or actual construction. Most of this is pure handwork. I guess one has to imagine the first few prototypes were hand made, I wonder how many to get it to work? Then, I presume, comes the tooling. Would have been much easier if I had one in my hands to work from. It has given me such an appreciation for the pure genius of these guys and the incredible craftsmanship that went into the work. One has to imagine how apprenticeships worked back then, I'm envisioning some 10 year old doing nothing but polishing grip screws all day. I have long felt Herr Borchardt has gotten kind of a footnote in History, compared to Herr Luger. I wish I had the resources to write a book strictly on the Borchardt. I recently built a wheellock which was very difficult to get to work.....500 year old technology! Probably a hundred assemblies, disassembly, file, fit, etc. Then one day, 'Bang'....nearly jumped off the ground!

TennBill2 · 03-02-2011, 10:57 AM

Oh yea, Dr, I don't know what the cost would be. That little toggle assembly represents a good 8 hours!

sheepherder · 03-02-2011, 03:18 PM

Great project!!! I can't wait to see how it turns out!!!

I wish I had your talent & resources!!!

If you haven't bought/ordered your chambering reamer yet, 4-D has reamer rentals, and 30 Mauser is one of them -

http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.p...istol+Calibers

I've used their rentals, while waiting for my back-ordered reamer, and they are in excellent shape and reasonably priced.

TennBill2 · 03-02-2011, 06:31 PM

I looked at their stuff last night! Wow, I can't believe the price of reamers now. I bought my .30 Luger reamer years ago when I built my Carbine.

sheepherder · 03-02-2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennBill2

I looked at their stuff last night! Wow, I can't believe the price of reamers now. I bought my .30 Luger reamer years ago when I built my Carbine.

I prefer Clymer reamers; but the Clymer family sold out to a corp and in turn, the corp contracted to sell only through Brownell's. So while Brownell's lists the complete line, they refer your order to Clymer's...Who then grind the reamer...

It took over a month to get it...

I suppose this is because I only want obscure reamers that no one will stock...but it still irks me no end...

The reamer I rented from 4-D looked brand new...and cut like a hot knife through butter...

Lugerdoc · 03-02-2011, 08:02 PM

Bill, Some years ago I had some of the frame mounted catches made for the M1900 luger toggle lock. If you can duplicate the slot, I have the catches @$25 each + $3 S&H. PS: Also have a few orig M1900 toggle lock parts @$100 each. TH

MG-42 · 07-02-2012, 12:08 AM

I love this project. I just wish we could see more of it.

03-01-2011, 11:48 AM	#1
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Toggle lock frame hold down thingy? Trying to get an idea exactly how that thing in the frame actually is mounted and what it looks like. Looked at many pics showing the toggle lock but no clear pics of the frame portion. Looks like it was cut/dovetailed in. This is a pic of what I've made thus far for my Borchardt replica. Haven't made a spring yet. Any help? Bill Attached Images

03-01-2011, 01:38 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Bill, The catch is actually fit into a "T" shaped slot in the frame rather than a dovetail, and silver soldered in place. I had a loose catch from a 1900 Luger that I wanted to photograph for you, but I can't find the darned thing among all my junk. I will keep looking, but don't hold your breath. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 03-02-2011 at 11:27 AM.

03-01-2011, 06:37 PM	#5
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks! For the referenced pics/site, info, and maybe a 'lucky find', Ron. Making that little lever and machining the toggle was no small task for something that's relatively worthless.......but it's part of the gun. Those were some valuable pics, views I'd not seen before. Don't know how I missed that site, bookmarked now! I sure there is a good German word for that thing, vielleicht: Das Lugerborchardttogglemachininholdendowninfurnichts teil!

03-02-2011, 09:26 AM	#7
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	The parts: Pic of the progress thus far. I need to get a fininishing reamer for 30 Mauser to set the head space. I actually reamed it deep with a .30 Luger reamer, so I'll only need a few thou to finish. I will start testing with primed shells, move up slow with soft loads to get the mainspring tension. Attached Images

03-02-2011, 10:53 AM	#10
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Thanks guys! I'm not sure which has been the most difficult, collecting information, making patterns, or actual construction. Most of this is pure handwork. I guess one has to imagine the first few prototypes were hand made, I wonder how many to get it to work? Then, I presume, comes the tooling. Would have been much easier if I had one in my hands to work from. It has given me such an appreciation for the pure genius of these guys and the incredible craftsmanship that went into the work. One has to imagine how apprenticeships worked back then, I'm envisioning some 10 year old doing nothing but polishing grip screws all day. I have long felt Herr Borchardt has gotten kind of a footnote in History, compared to Herr Luger. I wish I had the resources to write a book strictly on the Borchardt. I recently built a wheellock which was very difficult to get to work.....500 year old technology! Probably a hundred assemblies, disassembly, file, fit, etc. Then one day, 'Bang'....nearly jumped off the ground!

03-01-2011, 12:13 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,046 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,946 Times in 1,197 Posts	Hi, yes. A channel has been milled from top to bottom in the frame. A small piece of metal with a catch at the top is dovetailed into that hole.

03-01-2011, 01:02 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Bill, Here are some excellent photos showing exactly what you need.. http://www.forgottenweapons.com/lore...tomatic-pistol

03-02-2011, 10:02 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Amazing project!!

03-02-2011, 10:19 AM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Amazing! I'm surprised you're only making one. To go to all that skillful "trouble" I would think at least 2-3 "copies" should be made. I think you would have a market to sell one or two. Problem is, what price would you have to charge to defray the costs of time and material?

03-02-2011, 10:57 AM	#11
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Oh yea, Dr, I don't know what the cost would be. That little toggle assembly represents a good 8 hours!

03-02-2011, 03:18 PM	#12
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Great project!!! I can't wait to see how it turns out!!! I wish I had your talent & resources!!! If you haven't bought/ordered your chambering reamer yet, 4-D has reamer rentals, and 30 Mauser is one of them - http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.p...istol+Calibers I've used their rentals, while waiting for my back-ordered reamer, and they are in excellent shape and reasonably priced. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-02-2011, 06:31 PM	#13
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	I looked at their stuff last night! Wow, I can't believe the price of reamers now. I bought my .30 Luger reamer years ago when I built my Carbine.

03-02-2011, 08:02 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Bill, Some years ago I had some of the frame mounted catches made for the M1900 luger toggle lock. If you can duplicate the slot, I have the catches @$25 each + $3 S&H. PS: Also have a few orig M1900 toggle lock parts @$100 each. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-02-2012, 12:08 AM	#16
MG-42 New User Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I love this project. I just wish we could see more of it.