Ku Luger fans

[dalep38]

What We Know or Don’t Know about Ku Lugers (please excuse the no .. over the u’s )
I attended a gun show this weekend and ran into an elder collector fellow of whom I’ve had the acquaintance of over the years. We had engaged in a conversation on the 480 code variation of P.38’s which invariably led to a book reference. Once on the subject of books he made a rather telling comment to me, when he said “I don’t read any of the newer books because they contradict everything I learned in the older books” Now please note the following, this gentleman had in the past acquired a fantastic high valued collection of nearly every possible variation of P.38’s over a 50 year period. In turn he had also sold off the entire collection in recent years. I’m sure we all can relate to his comment when we pick up just about any one of the latest gun reference books. Now I don’t know if the sell off of his collection was financially driven or exhaustion driven (interest burn out) but I will say this. I think we all know exactly what he meant with his, shall we say Yogi Berra (ism) statement. Now on to the Ku Luger reference.
I’m new to the Ku luger fraternity thanks to a fine gentleman who sold me a nice Ku suffix that you might notice has become my new avatar on the Luger forums. So like with most of my new acquisitions I decided to do some further research other than what I thought I knew so far. In the past I’ve acquired and read these fine Ku reference books or publications: Gibson’s- Krieghoff Parabellum, Jan Stills- Third Reich Lugers , Automag –various issues, and more recently Don Hallock and Joop Van de Kant’s –The Mauser Parabellum and finally Pistole Parabellum by Gortz and Sturgess.
What have I learned? Well in vague summary; Randall Gibson’s fine research put to rest the origin of the components as being from Mauser, most likely assembled for the Luftwaffe but not certain by who and put the number of Ku Lugers around 5000 with no for certain meaning of the Ku but several possible meanings that raised a few new questions with his research.
In Jan’s fine book( 9 pages of info) -Third Reich Lugers, it is mentioned that there are approx. 5025 Ku Lugers most likely made for the Luftwaffe from leftover & spare parts with an uncertain assembly date of 1941 but possibly as late as 1944 and references Automag Vol. XIV, mentioning Lou Cuta’s note that Ku possibly means Kummerer for substandard or improper sized. T.R.L also brings up the finish as being cruder than 1941 contract standards and that the proof mark used has close similarities to other Luftwaffe markings.
Don and Joop’s fine book notes (8 pages of info): Ku lugers are made from replacement parts spanning the part years of 1934 to 1942 and the use of some S/42 replacement barrels with a possible date of assembly sometime around late 1942. The book references( Joachim Gortz’s research about a shortage of Lugers for the Luftwaffe due to Army demands for lugers from the fall of the sixth army at Stalingrad by Jan 1943 and the Luftwaffe needed lugers during the first 3 months of 1943 and couldn’t get them so Ku Lugers were possibly assembled from rejected spare parts in a hurry to meet the demand.) The Eagle /LA acceptance stamp possibly suggests a Luftwaffe inspector was responsible for the acceptance procedure. The finish was again noted as substandard for ’41 or 42 Mauser production. The total number of Ku Lugers produced is now thought to be about 8250 guns. Ku is now possibly a code for the assembly firm of Adolph Kurschner - Metalwaffenfabrik in Bavaria. And that the research needs to continue.
Gortz and Sturgess’s fine new book (about a page and a half of info) puts the quantity of Ku lugers produced at around 5000 with a Luftwaffe style drooped wing eagle proof mark LZA monogram –meaning- Luftwaffenzeugamt. (Air Force Ord. Depot) and notes again that it was the same mark found on MG15 and MG81 Air Force Machine gun replacement barrels that were procured for the Air force not the Army thus confirming it as a Luftwaffe only proof mark. It is now likely thought that the Ku prefix or suffix stamped by the serial number is an abbreviation code of the actual location of the LZA plant that was responsible for the assembly, proof and inspection of the Ku lugers. This analogy comes from existing HZA location codes discovered that used abbreviated letters of the city or area where these type facilities were located as demonstrated by a box of ammunition pictured. It is also stated that the actual location of Ku luger assembly is still unknown.
So what did I learn, well I’m a little confused and maybe I’m a being a bit bias but I tend to lean towards some of the former research with a little more weight on Don and Joop’s material because it follows a path already established by Gibson and Still and makes a lot of sense with the quantity derived from documented actual reported Ku Luger serial numbers. But all in all there are so many mentions of uncertainty that no one really can be sure at the present time. Is it any wonder the collector gentleman so eloquently stated- “ I don’t read any of the newer books because they contradict everything I learned in the older books”
Just my 2 cents or well maybe or I at least possibly think so or maybe uncertain ahh… Well needs to continue…Thank You, Dale

[spartacus38]

Thank you Dale for your input.I think as time goes by we will continue to have a better
understanding of the KU Lugers.

Bob

[Vlim]

I don’t read any of the newer books because they contradict everything I learned in the older books

Understandable, but his reasoning is flawed. A lot of previously hidden archive material has turned up in the last couple of years. This material has been out of reach of many of the older authors and researchers. And sometimes it is good to take a fresh, unbiased look at the evidence we have. So I would not recommend sticking to the old sources and disregarding the new ones.

During the research work for our book 'The Parabellum Is Back! 1945-2000' we were amazed to find what material was still available. For a long time we all thought that August Weiss his notebooks were in the hands of a German collector/author who had no desire to allow any ouside access to these notebooks. And then we found that someone had copied most of the material when Mr. Weiss was still alive, furthermore that this material was available!

In an old Mauser folder we found copies of the original contracts between Mauser and Waffenfabrik Bern, including a list of parts suppliers, just an example.

What has happened with the introduction of the internet is that we now have access to sources all over the globe with little or no delay. Things that took months to discuss, using snail mail and local translators get arranged within minutes these days. International contacts help us to tap into local information that otherwise was very difficult to obtain.

The Kü mystery will be solved, sooner or later. And our current tools will help us to solve it a lot quicker as well.

[Balder]

Vlim,

Well put.

Balder

[dalep38]

John, alanint, Bob, Vlim and others: Thank you for your respected comments, thank you notes and replies. Please don't take my reference work too seriously as it was not meant to offend or discredit any of the newer publications. I think we can all agree that new information is welcome and necessary with our pastime. The thread was intended to be somewhat of a satire as noted by my comical and unsure sign off comments. I just wanted to forward what a longtime collector had commented to me and show a fun example for reference. I thouroughly respect and admire all of the hard work that has gone into any of the referenced publications and I as well as others surely look forward to the Ku Luger question someday soon being solved..Thank You, Dale