Please help me I.D. this Luger

Shaffer · 01-09-2011, 08:15 PM

Hello all. I am new to this forum. We have a Luger in our family and we are trying to determine any significant info we can about it (history, value, etc.).

Here is what I can tell you so far:

-all parts match
-original finish
-has a grip safety
-black plastic grip
-"DWM" logo on toggle
-no chamber inscription
-7.65mm caliber
-circled "B" on front left of chamber (#27 /Brazilian on proof mark sheet)

Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

DavidJayUden · 01-09-2011, 08:48 PM

Pictures and a good description of condition is important, especially for one that has been in Brazil. Rust? Bore condition?
Sure sounds like a 1906 Brazilian contract gun. The black plastic grips sound suspect but the rest sounds right.
Welcome.
dju

LugerVern · 01-09-2011, 08:50 PM

You may have a Brazilian 06, Simpson's currently has three one is SN3164 , so not too far from yours.
Look under the DWM section.

http://www.simpsonltd.com

We would love to see pictures, there has been a lot of discussion on the Brazilian lugers lately, so plenty to read if your interested.

Vern

Hugo Borchardt · 01-09-2011, 09:02 PM

Shaffer:

Welcome to the forum. What you have is a 1906 Brazilian military contract P08. It is my current understanding that Brazil placed the order in 1907 after successful trials starting in 1904.

5000 were made serial #'d 1 to 5000. The extractor (also indicates a cartridge is in the chamber) should be marked "CARREGADA".

Does it have a holster?

As David said, the original grips should have been wood. We would need a few good photos to provide more information.

Hope this is helpful.

Shaffer · 01-10-2011, 01:14 PM

Thank you gentlemen for your initial help. I will get pictures posted as soon as I can.

Hugo Borchardt · 01-10-2011, 07:22 PM

Thanks for the photos. The grips are wood and do look like worn original grips. They might be serial #'d to the gun on the inside of them. If you decide to remove them, be very careful as they are easy to chip. Looks like a nice example to me.

The others will be able to evaluate the finish a little better as most Brazilians went through hard use are often worn out and often restored. I had a restored example a while back.

If the finish is original, I'm guessing $1500, perhaps more to the right buyer. Nice gun!

Clark

LugerVern · 01-10-2011, 07:58 PM

Pictures can fool us sometimes, but it does appear to have had some touch up work done to it. If true, this will lower the collector value.

The gun does look very nice however, thanks for posting!!

Vern

Thor · 01-10-2011, 08:04 PM

Not too many Brazilians out there, out of nearly 300 Lugers I have restored, only one, 4604 was a Brazilian Luger with the circle B proof.

alanint · 01-10-2011, 08:52 PM

The strawing looks more like blow torching to me. "touch up work " indeed!!

DavidJayUden · 01-10-2011, 10:44 PM

I suspect that Alanint is referring to the color of the small parts, the safety selector lever in particular. It looks rather bluish, not golden "straw" colored. Straw coloring is a heat process, easily done a t home, but the temp is critical, too hot and you don't get straw colored parts, but brown, blue, etc. The factory would not have missed the color as they were THE experts.
Alanint, please correct me if I am wrong.
dju

LugerVern · 01-10-2011, 10:45 PM

Small parts on your gun, take down lever, trigger and safety lever should have a straw color to them. This fades over time and use and may even appear dark. Strawing is just a heat treating process but if not done correctly you will get a blue color ( too hot) and your small parts show bluing from excessive heat treating.

Metal to metal surfaces from the action moving produce wear marks, for example just in front of the side plate and toggle hinges, your gun does not show this sign of usage.

The safety bar that sticks up to block the sear bar should be in the "white" yours appears to be blued.

We don't really like to pick at members guns, it can get to be very aggravating especially knowing they may have spent much money in a recent purchase or be sentimental about a family owned gun. I hope this is not upsetting.

You have a great looking gun and also a good start of a collection if you want to go that route.

Vern

Norme · 01-10-2011, 10:52 PM

Hi Richard, If it's any consolation, most Brazilian guns were refinished, due to the humid climate. Despite that, yours is a very nice example, and most collectors would be happy to own it. Regards, Norm

alanint · 01-11-2011, 03:07 AM

Sorry for the "blow torching" remark but as other members pointed out, I was indeed referring to the excessive heat discoloration on the parts that should have a pleasant, light straw color.
One last item that seems altered as well is the sear bar, which appears deep blued when it's finish should match the balance of the pistol.
As other members also pointed out; a nice, rare gun anybody would be happy to own.

Douglas Jr. · 01-13-2011, 02:08 PM

Shaffer,

Congratulations for your Brazilian contract Luger. I've been collecting data (your wasn't in my list) and studying this variations for some time now, and I have some information posted on Jan Still's board.

Now, let's share it here too.

In 1908 a military commission was sent to Germany by the Brazilian Army in order to purchase 400,000 Mauser Rifles (the so called Brazilian Model 1908). At the same occasion it was also dealt with DWM the acquisition of 5000 “Neuer Art” pistols in caliber 7,65mm Luger.

Those pistols, featuring the grip safety and 4.75 inches barrels, had a specific serial number range (1 – 5000), a Brazilian inspector proof stamped on the left side of the receiver (a “circled B”), and the extractor marked “CARREGADA” (which means “loaded” in Portuguese language). On the contrary to the Mauser rifles, the pistol lacked any national coat of arms. The guns were delivered in several batches between 1908-1911.

Official news about its issuing in the Brazilian Army and its technical and shooting information was published in the Army Bulletin nr. 214", dated from July 5th, 1912. On this bulletin, it was presented the "Instructions to the Parabellum Pistol's Shooting" (Instruções para o Tiro com a Pistola Parabellum).

At that time, the Luger pistol was named according to the “old” rule of nomenclature, which remained in use from the Empire days until the late 1940s. According to this system, they follow the commercial name of the gun and, so, the Luger of the Brazilian contract was called “Pistola Parabellum” upon its adoption by the Brazilian Army.

Sometime during the 1920s, the name Parabellum became Parabelum (with only one “L”), and was written this way in the documents of some State Law Enforcements where the Luger pistol also saw service. This version of the name was found in documents from the State of Alagoas Police Department (1925) and from the Federal District of Guanabara (which comprised the city of Rio de Janeiro, by then the Brazilian Federal Government District) in 1923 and 1924. The guns transfered to the Northeastern states remained in use until late 50s, in small scale, where they became a kind of praised gun.

It's interesting to note that, contrary to the common belief, these pistols saw plenty of action. There is a common (but incorrect) thinking that Brazilians Lugers should not look so weary as the country was not involved in a war for a century or so.

However, this is not true: these Lugers' time of service coincided with a period of social and military unrest in Brazil's history. Considering that these pistols were issued to service around 1908-1910, they took part during in several military episodes:

- Contestado War (1912-1916):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contestado_War

- First World War (1918): Brazil sent a small fleet of ships to escort convoys in Atlantic, a medic unit to France and some pilots served with the RAF.

- The "Lieutenants" Revolts of 1922 and 1924-27: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenente_revolts

- The Revolution of 1930: the revolt that put an end to the 1st republic and saw the rising of dictator Getulio Vargas (1883-1954) who would head the government until 1945.

- The Revolution of 1932 (or "The Constitutionalist Revolution"): an attempt to debulk Vargas' government conducted by the State of São Paulo forces that developed into a brief Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constit...ist_Revolution

- The "Cangaço": is the name given to a form of "social banditry" in the Northeast of Brazil in late 19th and early 20th centuries. This region of Brazil is known for its aridness and hardships, and in a form of reaction against the domination of the land owners, the government and the European colonizers, many men and women decided to become nomadic bandits, roaming the sertões, seeking money, food, and revenge. The most famous "cangaceiro" was "Lampião", who carried a 1918 DWM Luger in 9mm

. Most of the police forces and even some of the bandits carried and praised the Luger, by them called "para-belo". Lampião was killed in an ambush in 1938, beheaded, and his head was displayed along with several pistols and rifles captured with his gang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canga%C...aceiro_weapons

So, it was not only the tropical weather that the Brazilian Lugers had the bear with. They saw, in fact, a lot of action.

During my research, I managed to get copies of two governmmental documents regarding the pistol. The first one is the “Manual of Infantry Weapons” ("Manual de Armas da Infantaria") of the Brazilian Army, authored by Cyro de Albuquerque Lima (Rio de Janeiro, Papelaria Moderna publisher, 1933). In its pages 45-50, it calls the Luger as “pistola Parabellum”. I’m attaching the first page of this book. Interesting to note that it shows an “Alter Art” Luger (model 1900) and that they used both ways of writing (with one and two "L"). This paper was provided to me by the curator of the Army's Museum located in the city of São Conrado, Rio de Janeiro (that's why it is marked "private collection").

The second is the above mentioned Army Bulletin #214, that I'm attaching a few pages.

Hope it helps you a little bit.

Greetings,

Douglas.

Norme · 01-13-2011, 02:51 PM

Hi Douglas, Thanks for the great essay. Brazil's turbulent history, as you describe it, is particularly interesting. It's not just the climate that's hot down there! Best regards, Norm.

Douglas Jr. · 01-14-2011, 06:23 AM

Norme,

Thanks for your words.
An additional information: when the outlaw Lampião (which means "lantern", his real name was Virgulino Ferreira da Silva) was killed and beheaded with twelve othe members of his gang, a picture of their heads was taken. They are displayed with several guns and objects that had belonged to the group. In this picture it is possible to see several Lugers.

I had posted this picture before, but I think I won't do it again because it can be disturbing to someone more sensitive about viewing human remains.

Greetings,

Douglas.

01-09-2011, 08:15 PM	#1
Shaffer New User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Please help me I.D. this Luger Hello all. I am new to this forum. We have a Luger in our family and we are trying to determine any significant info we can about it (history, value, etc.). Here is what I can tell you so far: -all parts match -original finish -has a grip safety -black plastic grip -"DWM" logo on toggle -no chamber inscription -7.65mm caliber -circled "B" on front left of chamber (#27 /Brazilian on proof mark sheet) Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Last edited by Shaffer; 01-29-2011 at 04:37 PM.

01-09-2011, 09:02 PM	#4
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Shaffer: Welcome to the forum. What you have is a 1906 Brazilian military contract P08. It is my current understanding that Brazil placed the order in 1907 after successful trials starting in 1904. 5000 were made serial #'d 1 to 5000. The extractor (also indicates a cartridge is in the chamber) should be marked "CARREGADA". Does it have a holster? As David said, the original grips should have been wood. We would need a few good photos to provide more information. Hope this is helpful. __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

01-10-2011, 07:22 PM	#6
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 133 Times in 47 Posts	Thanks for the photos. The grips are wood and do look like worn original grips. They might be serial #'d to the gun on the inside of them. If you decide to remove them, be very careful as they are easy to chip. Looks like a nice example to me. The others will be able to evaluate the finish a little better as most Brazilians went through hard use are often worn out and often restored. I had a restored example a while back. If the finish is original, I'm guessing $1500, perhaps more to the right buyer. Nice gun! Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm Last edited by Hugo Borchardt; 01-10-2011 at 08:21 PM.

01-10-2011, 08:04 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Not too many Brazilians out there, out of nearly 300 Lugers I have restored, only one, 4604 was a Brazilian Luger with the circle B proof. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-13-2011, 02:08 PM	#14
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Shaffer, Congratulations for your Brazilian contract Luger. I've been collecting data (your wasn't in my list) and studying this variations for some time now, and I have some information posted on Jan Still's board. Now, let's share it here too. In 1908 a military commission was sent to Germany by the Brazilian Army in order to purchase 400,000 Mauser Rifles (the so called Brazilian Model 1908). At the same occasion it was also dealt with DWM the acquisition of 5000 “Neuer Art” pistols in caliber 7,65mm Luger. Those pistols, featuring the grip safety and 4.75 inches barrels, had a specific serial number range (1 – 5000), a Brazilian inspector proof stamped on the left side of the receiver (a “circled B”), and the extractor marked “CARREGADA” (which means “loaded” in Portuguese language). On the contrary to the Mauser rifles, the pistol lacked any national coat of arms. The guns were delivered in several batches between 1908-1911. Official news about its issuing in the Brazilian Army and its technical and shooting information was published in the Army Bulletin nr. 214", dated from July 5th, 1912. On this bulletin, it was presented the "Instructions to the Parabellum Pistol's Shooting" (Instruções para o Tiro com a Pistola Parabellum). At that time, the Luger pistol was named according to the “old” rule of nomenclature, which remained in use from the Empire days until the late 1940s. According to this system, they follow the commercial name of the gun and, so, the Luger of the Brazilian contract was called “Pistola Parabellum” upon its adoption by the Brazilian Army. Sometime during the 1920s, the name Parabellum became Parabelum (with only one “L”), and was written this way in the documents of some State Law Enforcements where the Luger pistol also saw service. This version of the name was found in documents from the State of Alagoas Police Department (1925) and from the Federal District of Guanabara (which comprised the city of Rio de Janeiro, by then the Brazilian Federal Government District) in 1923 and 1924. The guns transfered to the Northeastern states remained in use until late 50s, in small scale, where they became a kind of praised gun. It's interesting to note that, contrary to the common belief, these pistols saw plenty of action. There is a common (but incorrect) thinking that Brazilians Lugers should not look so weary as the country was not involved in a war for a century or so. However, this is not true: these Lugers' time of service coincided with a period of social and military unrest in Brazil's history. Considering that these pistols were issued to service around 1908-1910, they took part during in several military episodes: - Contestado War (1912-1916): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contestado_War - First World War (1918): Brazil sent a small fleet of ships to escort convoys in Atlantic, a medic unit to France and some pilots served with the RAF. - The "Lieutenants" Revolts of 1922 and 1924-27: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenente_revolts - The Revolution of 1930: the revolt that put an end to the 1st republic and saw the rising of dictator Getulio Vargas (1883-1954) who would head the government until 1945. - The Revolution of 1932 (or "The Constitutionalist Revolution"): an attempt to debulk Vargas' government conducted by the State of São Paulo forces that developed into a brief Civil War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constit...ist_Revolution - The "Cangaço": is the name given to a form of "social banditry" in the Northeast of Brazil in late 19th and early 20th centuries. This region of Brazil is known for its aridness and hardships, and in a form of reaction against the domination of the land owners, the government and the European colonizers, many men and women decided to become nomadic bandits, roaming the sertões, seeking money, food, and revenge. The most famous "cangaceiro" was "Lampião", who carried a 1918 DWM Luger in 9mm . Most of the police forces and even some of the bandits carried and praised the Luger, by them called "para-belo". Lampião was killed in an ambush in 1938, beheaded, and his head was displayed along with several pistols and rifles captured with his gang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canga%C...aceiro_weapons So, it was not only the tropical weather that the Brazilian Lugers had the bear with. They saw, in fact, a lot of action. During my research, I managed to get copies of two governmmental documents regarding the pistol. The first one is the “Manual of Infantry Weapons” ("Manual de Armas da Infantaria") of the Brazilian Army, authored by Cyro de Albuquerque Lima (Rio de Janeiro, Papelaria Moderna publisher, 1933). In its pages 45-50, it calls the Luger as “pistola Parabellum”. I’m attaching the first page of this book. Interesting to note that it shows an “Alter Art” Luger (model 1900) and that they used both ways of writing (with one and two "L"). This paper was provided to me by the curator of the Army's Museum located in the city of São Conrado, Rio de Janeiro (that's why it is marked "private collection"). The second is the above mentioned Army Bulletin #214, that I'm attaching a few pages. Hope it helps you a little bit. Greetings, Douglas. Attached Thumbnails

01-09-2011, 08:48 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Pictures and a good description of condition is important, especially for one that has been in Brazil. Rust? Bore condition? Sure sounds like a 1906 Brazilian contract gun. The black plastic grips sound suspect but the rest sounds right. Welcome. dju

01-09-2011, 08:50 PM	#3
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	You may have a Brazilian 06, Simpson's currently has three one is SN3164 , so not too far from yours. Look under the DWM section. http://www.simpsonltd.com We would love to see pictures, there has been a lot of discussion on the Brazilian lugers lately, so plenty to read if your interested. Vern

01-10-2011, 01:14 PM	#5
Shaffer New User Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you gentlemen for your initial help. I will get pictures posted as soon as I can.

01-10-2011, 07:58 PM	#7
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Pictures can fool us sometimes, but it does appear to have had some touch up work done to it. If true, this will lower the collector value. The gun does look very nice however, thanks for posting!! Vern

01-10-2011, 08:52 PM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The strawing looks more like blow torching to me. "touch up work " indeed!!

01-10-2011, 10:44 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I suspect that Alanint is referring to the color of the small parts, the safety selector lever in particular. It looks rather bluish, not golden "straw" colored. Straw coloring is a heat process, easily done a t home, but the temp is critical, too hot and you don't get straw colored parts, but brown, blue, etc. The factory would not have missed the color as they were THE experts. Alanint, please correct me if I am wrong. dju

01-10-2011, 10:45 PM	#11
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Small parts on your gun, take down lever, trigger and safety lever should have a straw color to them. This fades over time and use and may even appear dark. Strawing is just a heat treating process but if not done correctly you will get a blue color ( too hot) and your small parts show bluing from excessive heat treating. Metal to metal surfaces from the action moving produce wear marks, for example just in front of the side plate and toggle hinges, your gun does not show this sign of usage. The safety bar that sticks up to block the sear bar should be in the "white" yours appears to be blued. We don't really like to pick at members guns, it can get to be very aggravating especially knowing they may have spent much money in a recent purchase or be sentimental about a family owned gun. I hope this is not upsetting. You have a great looking gun and also a good start of a collection if you want to go that route. Vern

01-10-2011, 10:52 PM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Richard, If it's any consolation, most Brazilian guns were refinished, due to the humid climate. Despite that, yours is a very nice example, and most collectors would be happy to own it. Regards, Norm

01-11-2011, 03:07 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Sorry for the "blow torching" remark but as other members pointed out, I was indeed referring to the excessive heat discoloration on the parts that should have a pleasant, light straw color. One last item that seems altered as well is the sear bar, which appears deep blued when it's finish should match the balance of the pistol. As other members also pointed out; a nice, rare gun anybody would be happy to own.

01-13-2011, 02:51 PM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Douglas, Thanks for the great essay. Brazil's turbulent history, as you describe it, is particularly interesting. It's not just the climate that's hot down there! Best regards, Norm.

01-14-2011, 06:23 AM	#16
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Norme, Thanks for your words. An additional information: when the outlaw Lampião (which means "lantern", his real name was Virgulino Ferreira da Silva) was killed and beheaded with twelve othe members of his gang, a picture of their heads was taken. They are displayed with several guns and objects that had belonged to the group. In this picture it is possible to see several Lugers. I had posted this picture before, but I think I won't do it again because it can be disturbing to someone more sensitive about viewing human remains. Greetings, Douglas.