DWM 1939 Luger E. German Police no Serial No on Frame

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I was at a gun shop today and was looking at a Luger for sale, it has numbers on the Slide the barrel the take down lever, safety that all match, the toggle doesn't. It has the sunburst in front of the serial number on the slide, saying E.German Police rework.

I didn't notice until later that there was no serial number on the front of the frame. The front of the frame has the same blueing as the rest of the frame with about the same amount of where and age.

Has anyone ever seen a Luger, especially and E.German rework, that doesn't have a serial number on the frame. And what ramifications could it have and would it be legal to register?

[policeluger]

It would be up to the dealer to contact ATF and have a SN# given it, I would not touch it until then......at least my 2 cents worth

[Edward Tinker]

what are the proof and acceptance markings on the right?

Although the sn is not on the frame, the regulations just state it has to have a serial number stamped conspicuously...

(c) In the event the firearm does not bear a serial number, the applicant shall
obtain a serial number from the Regional director (compliance) and shall stamp (impress) or otherwise
conspicuously place such serial number on the firearm in a manner not susceptible of being readily
obliterated, altered or removed.

Also, prior to this ruling and regulation, serial numbers were not required:

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), at Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 923(i), and the National Firearms Act (NFA), at Title 26, U.S.C., section 5842(a), require all licensed importers and manufacturers to identify each firearm imported or manufactured by means of a serial number engraved or cast on the frame or receiver of the
weapon, in such manner as the Attorney General shall by regulations prescribe. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a) and 479.102(a) prescribe the requirements for

serialization and other marks of identification that must be placed on firearms.

Ed

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Although the sn is not on the frame, the regulations just state it has to have a serial number stamped conspicuously...

(Ed's browser seems to be stuck on Size 3)

I live in New York State; there is no mandated location for the serial number. Both my Broomhandle Mausers have the serial on the receiver, not the frame. Same for my Ruger .22 automatic. NYS would accept the 3299b as the serial.

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Here are the acceptance and proof marks from the right side of the receiver they are also on the barrel as well

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Here is something I got from someone on the gun boards forum regarding this gun - NOTE there are no Import Marks anywhere on the gun


Maybe it is not as obvious "in person" but it is pretty clear in the pictures that the grip frame number has been removed. Normally the receiver, the part the barrel screws into, does not have the full serial, only the numbers without the suffix letter. BATFE has ruled that on Lugers, the receiver (what you call the slide) is the gun, since it can be fired without the grip frame. But normally only the grip frame has the full serial number, with the letter suffix.

I don't think the E. Germans removed that number; I think the importer was told to by US customs or BATFE. Then the full number, with the letter suffix, was put on the receiver, the part BATFE sees as being the gun. The number shown is obviously not original, having a totally different font from the one used in 1939.

It seems to me that the potential problem is that what was done, and I am fairly certain it was done at the orders of BATFE, violates the law against removing the serial number and puts a person possessing the gun in a bind since possession of a gun with a serial number removed is a violation of the law.

If I were the dealer, I would immediately contact BATFE, in writing, asking for a revenue ruling and a full explanation to clear him and his customers.

Jim

[policeluger]

If it HAD a serial # and was removed, need to contact ATF......it is one thing to never of had a number, another thing to have a gun that the number was removed.....again let seller contact ATF

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright SASS

Here is something I got from someone on the gun boards forum regarding this gun - NOTE there are no Import Marks anywhere on the gun

Jim

I DON'T THINK YOU ARE JIM OR ED; AND YET YOU KEEP COPYING ITEMS FROM ONE THREAD ON DIFFERENT FORUMS AND THEN PLAYING THEM AGAINST EACH OTHER.

BELEIVE ONE OF US OR NONE OF US, BUT DON'T TAKE INFO FROMONE FORUM AND PLAY IT AGAINST THE OTHER FORUMS.


Ed

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I am sorry about that. I am just totally confused by what to do. I don't want to go to jail over doing something wrong.
In the past I called BATF with questions about the bound book and got two different and conflicting answers from agents.

Once again I want to apologize, I am just scared of doing the wrong thing.

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I guess in Mass they have made us paranoid about doing the right thing. We have to register every gun, whether purchased or inherited or given by someone whether I use my C&R or not it has to be registered.

I am very sorry for causing problems.

[Edward Tinker]

Jeff, my apoligies, I was just a bit "surprised" to see my posting on the main gunboards.

I do not think you are wrong in being concerned or paranoid; and you will get many answers to the same questions.

What you said on the other forum about your bound book, from what I understand, both answers are correct, from each light.

Some people interpret that any gun you aquire on your license or anywhere must be in your bound book. However, anything you aquired before your license would not go on there unless you sold it.

Others would say, anything in your collection needs to be in the book. That is not my interpretation...

And BTW, its not just anything 50 yrs old for C&R, but can be newer guns if the BATF has stated that it is a curio (i.e. the east german makarov's)


Ed

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

Ed,
Thank you for your understanding, I appreciate it.

You are correct on the fact that newer guns can be C&R's if they are so declared by BATF, in fact I hope that next years Colt Anniversary 1911's are so declared since in Massachusetts it is illegal to buy a Colt made after 1998 (or if before 1998 unless it was registered in Mass) from a dealer.

We cannot buy Colts, Springfield Armory, in fact about 80% of the guns out there are illegal to buy from a dealer in Mass, but on a C&R you can get them FFL to FFL (or face to face from an individual).

On the bound book what I have found agrees with you, that any guns you acquire that are C&R guns, since you got your license need to be in the bound book and if you have one from before your C&R you would put it in once you sell it.

One other thing I noticed about the Luger, the Hold Open Latch is missing, may be why I got it for a good price. I ordered a repro today, it will be interesting to see if it needs any hand fitting.

Hopefully this will be the first of many Lugers, although I wouldn't mind another P-38 to go with the Russian Capture one (can you see a pattern of low end firearms?).

Jeff

[John Sabato]

I would never accept the verbal answer of a BATFE agent to be gospel... it is only what they believe to be correct. And if you had to appear in court over something you were "told" by an agent, the chances are they might "forget" what they told you if they find out that it conflicts with actual law or regulations.

If you want to stay on the right side of the law, always approach the BATFE in WRITING. ...and get a ruling in WRITING... then you at least have some form of evidence that you did try to do the right thing.

Regarding the statement that BATFE has ruled that the Luger's component that is the "firearm" is the UPPER and not the frame... please reference your statement...

I have never seen that assertion backed up with paper... in fact, just the opposite.

BTW, I AGREE with the assertion that that the upper is the "firearm"... I just have never seen the BATFE interpret it that way, so if you have a ruling letter, please share it.

Thanks...