Newly acquired Luger

[buchkshot]

Great forum, guys! This is my first post. I just stumbled upon a Luger that hasn't seen the light of day since the early 70's and have been performing a lot of research to determine its history. This gun has markings all over it. Am somewhat knowledgable about Colts, Winchesters, Garands and M1 carbines but need to get educated in the world of Lugers. Can you gentlemen recommend any books? (Walter and Still keep popping up in my reading).

Gun is a double dated 1916 1920 DWM. Piece shows some very, very minor pitting on edges of frame that was refinished in 1920. Three digit serial number ending in 11 is evident under barrel and on front of frame. All other parts, internally and externally, except mag and grip panels are marked 11. All markings are clear and crisp. Finish is 85% to 90% and am confident original to 1920. Any wear is honest holster wear.

Bottom of barrel is also marked 8.83, Top, rear of barrel bears a single fat imperial eagle.

Sear safety is installed.

Left side of barrel/receiver immediately in front of side plate bears three symbols. The first apears to be a shield within a shield, followed by two crowns over an M. Same shield shows up on left of toggle.

Now, the real interesting features. Rear grip strap is hand stamped I.S.B. with a light handstamped 619. immediately under same.

Front strap is engraved with the letters S.W.I. followed by a machine stamped 1448. All seven characters have been X'd out.

Grip panels are in excellent shape except the left panel in the upper left quandrant has a 1/4" square missing.

Left side of frame, immediately above grip panel, bears a 1/8" vertical cut exactly 3/8" back from side plate.

It gets better, as tool and holster bear the same three digit serial number. Holster also bears the logo L.Z.A. over an eagle which is over Berlin.c

Mag is typical WWII issue. Holster bears some honest period repairs but is complete.

Based on my reading over the last three days, I have my own ideas as to origins and early and intermediate history but would enjoy reading your assessment(s). Will ask my son to post images before he goes away to school. And, last but not least, please share with me any conservative wholesale and retail range as to current market value. Thanks!

[Don M]

Welcome to the forum. You have a very interesting rig. We will look forward to your photos.

Your Luger was manufactured in 1916. It was originally a Navy model with a 6" barrel (crown/M stamps). Following WWI, the barrel was replaced with a 4" version for use by the police (assuming it now has a 4" barrel). The 1920 stamp indicates it was government property in that year. It is not of itself and indicator of rework; however, the gun was reworked if it now has a 4" barrel.

The marking on the front grip strap (S.W.I.1448.) indicates the pistol was issued to the Schutzpolizei of Frankfurt/Main in the Wiesbaden administrative district. You will probably see evidence of an earlier mark that was ground off (e.g., remnant periods). I am not sure about the marking on the back strap and will be very interested in a good photo of it.

You have noted that it has a sear safety. The cut on the left side of the frame indicates it once had a magazine safety installed as well. These were installed in 1934 and indicate the gun belonged to the Revierpolizei (precinct police) of Frankfurt. The fact that it was canceled and presumably later marked I.S.B.619. suggests it was transferred somewhere from Frankfurt. I am not familiar with that marking.

I would be very interested in knowing the full serial number of this pistol for my database of German police markings. If you prefer not to post it, you may email me at the address below.

[Edward Tinker]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Originally Posted by buchkshot

...
Gun is a double dated 1916 1920 DWM. Piece shows some very, very minor pitting on edges of frame that was refinished in 1920. ....

Finish is 85% to 90% and am confident original to 1920. ...

This is an inaccuracy that many dealers and some collects believe. The 1920 is not a date at all, but a governmental marking, to show it belonged to the gov't. You will see the 1920 on guns dated before WW1, on 1920 made (and dated) and on 1921 lugers.

So, the date is not there to show that the gun was refurbished or refinished.. At some point it may have been refurbed by the army or police, but the 1920 does not signify that.

Ed

[Norme]

Hi John, let me add my welcome to the forum. The I.S.B./619 on the rear grip strap, is an Imperial Navy property marking which stands for First Sea Battalion, gun #619. These naval markings were discontinued early in 1916, so it is likely that your gun has a three digit serial number. We would all like to see photos of this interesting piece. Regards, norm

[Lugerdoc]

John, I agree that the rear Naval making is the erlier one, made before rework for Police usage. TH

[Don M]

Tom and Norm have made up for my ignorance of Navy markings. Coincidentally, there is a thread on Jan Still's forum of a Navy with the same unit marking - http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=23801.

[buchkshot]

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen. It is indeed a 4" barrel. Gun sn is 911, just 25 away from gun mentioned in last post. Too bad gun does not sport original barrel. Still working on pics, but that is proving almost moot, for gun mentioned in last post has identical markings on left side of barrel/receiver. Unit marking on gun in my possession is 619 on back strap.

[Don M]

buchkshot,

Your gun would certainly be worth more if it had not been reworked for the police. On the other hand, it would not have as much history written on it. I am not an expert on values so I'll leave that to someone else.

In your original post, you noted that there is a small piece of the upper left corner of the left grip panel missing. This was notched out for the magazine safety that was installed in 1934.

[connectfour]

Welcome...I am new to the forum also. I would love to see some pictures!