New 1911 P-08. Seeking opinions....

colreed · 03-22-2010, 12:09 PM

My first post to lugerforum. Someone on Gunboards suggested I put my new baby over here.

Just sort of stumbled into a 1911 DWM the other day and could use some info and advice. Link to photobucket pictures to follow.

First, should I leave it the way it is or try to have it refinished?

Second, the letter after the SN, would that be a small e or a capital R? I don't know the conventions for SN letters.

Third, would you think the mag has been treated or did some of them come that way?

Fourth, I understand that the stamping on the grip front strap is a unit marking. How can I find out which unit?

Thanks very much for helping. Any and all advice will be most welcomed.

http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/1911%20P-08/

Regards,
Reed

If the link doesn't work, please let me know.

Norme · 03-22-2010, 02:03 PM

Hi Reed, Welcome to the forum. I've had a bit of difficulty viewing your photos. I saw enough to see that your Luger has been chromed. Thats too bad as it's otherwise a very interesting gun. I can also tell you that the magazine is not original, and that the serial suffix is an e. I'll let our unit mark experts decipher the marks for you. Regards,Norm

colreed · 03-22-2010, 02:52 PM

Thanks, Norm,
Sorry you had trouble with pics. I just uploaded them to an album here called "1911 DWM P-08". Don't know if I did it correctly, but if so, maybe you can view better. I'm sure you are more accustomed to albums here.
Thanks for referring me to the "unit" fellow. Am anxious to know to whom it was issued and used.
Regards
Reed

Norme · 03-22-2010, 05:23 PM

Hi Reed, I was able to access your photos on your profile. The unit mark translates to: Bavarian 1st Foot Artillery Regiment, Battery 3. Weapon no. 3. I notice that the trigger plate is mismatched, which makes little difference, since, as Ed Tinker has pointed out, chromed guns are of little interest to collectors. The chroming was probably done in the fifties by the GI who brought it back. Remember those automobiles? Regards, Norm

colreed · 03-22-2010, 06:50 PM

I'll be 70 next month but don't feel a day over 45. Had a '49 Merc, lowered, glass packs, leaded, spinners, canary yellow. Those were the days.
Let me ask one more question. I have gotten opposing opinions over on the Gunboards site.
My toggle will not lock open in the full open position with the mag either in or out. Is it designed to stay full back and locked? I saw an ad in the Gun Digest yesterday that said:

"Luger P08 DWM1910 #5XXXc, matched except mag, early sear, never milled for hold-open, unit marked 121.R.9.1. 90-92% $1995".

Is the "never milled" a design feature, or a flaw? Could mine be OK with no "hold-open"?

I got some feedback on Gunboards that said 1911 P-08 were made 13,000 in number and about 20% were unit marked. If true, my piece seems to be a little unique. I like it.

I have decided to not refinish the piece. In its own way, it is quite beautiful. Should pop some eyes along the way. Even as it is, I suspect it might be worth a couple hundred...What do you think?

FNorm · 03-22-2010, 07:07 PM

The German military didn't mandate the hold-open until May 1914. Or was it August? Anyway, a lot, but not all of those made before then were modified.

Karl · 03-22-2010, 07:15 PM

Reed,
Although the "hold open" that locks back the toggle with an empty magazine was part of the original Luger design it was not included on P-08 military lugers until 1913. At that point, earlier P-08 lugers were retrofitted with the hold open, however, some were not, especially Bavarian Army lugers. I am not able to acces your photos but there is a good posibility that your 1911 Luger was never modified with the hold open. In my opinion, this does not enhance or detract from the value of your Luger, which has little collector value anyway because of the chrome job. Enjoy this gun for what it is. The unit marking and (possibly) lack of hold open, and the probable WWII GI chrome job are part of its special history. KFS

Norme · 03-22-2010, 07:22 PM

Hi Reed, Most of the early guns were retrofitted with a hold open, except for those issued to the Bavarians, like yours. I think you're wise not to attempt a refinish, the gun will never be "right". I would think of the chroming as part of the gun's rich history. Regards, Norm

colreed · 03-22-2010, 09:10 PM

Thank you much for your inputs.
KFS, sorry you cant access the pics. They are in "my profile", "pictures and attachments". Too bad, I think it is kinda purdy. Maybe you can get to them via photobucket.

http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/1911%20P-08/

OK, looks like mine never had a hold-open. Kinda neat. I have really learned a lot today about this piece thanks to you fellows here on the forum. Much appreciate it. If I can ever help you with M1 carbine stuff, just let me know.
Regards
Reed

George Anderson · 03-23-2010, 06:35 AM

Reed, it's a shame about the chrome/nickel finish as the gun seems to have been in excellent condition at the time the deed was done. I have a brother to your 1911, it's serial number 3268e and grip strap marked B.1.A.F.1.13.

Jasta2 · 03-23-2010, 07:19 AM

Collector grade or not, it still looks nice chromed, though original finished would be best. It would almost be a intresting "sub set" in Luger collecting to have a collection of Vet. bring back Lugers that they had chromed/nickled/carved grip, ect. that personalized their bring back Luger. Most any Luger with a bring back history is intresting.
Regards, Bill

colreed · 03-23-2010, 07:59 AM

Hi George,
So neat. The two were in same regiment and only 2 batteries apart. I am assuming that a "battery" was a single field artiliary piece. So our two pieces were likely in line of sight of each other during the heat of battle.
I just love knowing the history of these old relics.
Thanks for your input.
Regards
Reed

George Anderson · 03-23-2010, 08:27 AM

Reed, the A.F. marking indicates Artillerie zu Fuss or Foot artillery as opposed to Field Artillery. Foot artillery were "heavies". Each regiment was made up of two battalions, a heavy field howitzer (15cm) battalion and a Mortar (21cm) battalion.

The mortar battalion consisted of two batteries of four mortars each. These were batteries 5 & 6. The howitzer battalion consisted of batteries 1 thru 4; each battery had four guns.

FNorm · 03-23-2010, 08:38 AM

They sound formidable, George! Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end.

FN

John Sabato · 03-23-2010, 08:47 AM

Your Luger has a rich history as remarked above. Love the war horse for what she is... She is not only beautiful, but will serve you and your heirs... she was made to last.

colreed · 03-23-2010, 08:47 AM

Good stuff. Regardless, our two pieces could have been sitting side by side at some common chow table, or at a staff meeting in the field.
Would love to have them both hanging on my wall. Some story they would tell.
Regards
Reed

colreed · 03-23-2010, 08:52 AM

Thanks JS for you kind and encouraging words. She is obviously well built, and with a smooth, tight action that has a sound that screams of perfection. She'll be 100 next year. Wow.
Regards
Reed

Piet · 03-23-2010, 02:16 PM

Well built they are. I have 199f used in South West Africa. Smooth and perfect is a understatement.
Enjoy the feeling of perfection.
Piet

03-22-2010, 12:09 PM	#1
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New 1911 P-08. Seeking opinions.... My first post to lugerforum. Someone on Gunboards suggested I put my new baby over here. Just sort of stumbled into a 1911 DWM the other day and could use some info and advice. Link to photobucket pictures to follow. First, should I leave it the way it is or try to have it refinished? Second, the letter after the SN, would that be a small e or a capital R? I don't know the conventions for SN letters. Third, would you think the mag has been treated or did some of them come that way? Fourth, I understand that the stamping on the grip front strap is a unit marking. How can I find out which unit? Thanks very much for helping. Any and all advice will be most welcomed. http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/1911%20P-08/ Regards, Reed If the link doesn't work, please let me know.

03-22-2010, 02:52 PM	#3
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1911 dwm p-08 Thanks, Norm, Sorry you had trouble with pics. I just uploaded them to an album here called "1911 DWM P-08". Don't know if I did it correctly, but if so, maybe you can view better. I'm sure you are more accustomed to albums here. Thanks for referring me to the "unit" fellow. Am anxious to know to whom it was issued and used. Regards Reed

03-22-2010, 09:10 PM	#9
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Norme and KFS Thank you much for your inputs. KFS, sorry you cant access the pics. They are in "my profile", "pictures and attachments". Too bad, I think it is kinda purdy. Maybe you can get to them via photobucket. http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o...1/1911%20P-08/ OK, looks like mine never had a hold-open. Kinda neat. I have really learned a lot today about this piece thanks to you fellows here on the forum. Much appreciate it. If I can ever help you with M1 carbine stuff, just let me know. Regards Reed

03-23-2010, 07:59 AM	#12
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow! "Together they served" Hi George, So neat. The two were in same regiment and only 2 batteries apart. I am assuming that a "battery" was a single field artiliary piece. So our two pieces were likely in line of sight of each other during the heat of battle. I just love knowing the history of these old relics. Thanks for your input. Regards Reed

03-23-2010, 08:47 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Your Luger has a rich history as remarked above. Love the war horse for what she is... She is not only beautiful, but will serve you and your heirs... she was made to last. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-22-2010, 02:03 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Reed, Welcome to the forum. I've had a bit of difficulty viewing your photos. I saw enough to see that your Luger has been chromed. Thats too bad as it's otherwise a very interesting gun. I can also tell you that the magazine is not original, and that the serial suffix is an e. I'll let our unit mark experts decipher the marks for you. Regards,Norm

03-22-2010, 05:23 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Reed, I was able to access your photos on your profile. The unit mark translates to: Bavarian 1st Foot Artillery Regiment, Battery 3. Weapon no. 3. I notice that the trigger plate is mismatched, which makes little difference, since, as Ed Tinker has pointed out, chromed guns are of little interest to collectors. The chroming was probably done in the fifties by the GI who brought it back. Remember those automobiles? Regards, Norm

03-22-2010, 06:50 PM	#5
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yea, Norme, I remember those autos.... I'll be 70 next month but don't feel a day over 45. Had a '49 Merc, lowered, glass packs, leaded, spinners, canary yellow. Those were the days. Let me ask one more question. I have gotten opposing opinions over on the Gunboards site. My toggle will not lock open in the full open position with the mag either in or out. Is it designed to stay full back and locked? I saw an ad in the Gun Digest yesterday that said: "Luger P08 DWM1910 #5XXXc, matched except mag, early sear, never milled for hold-open, unit marked 121.R.9.1. 90-92% $1995". Is the "never milled" a design feature, or a flaw? Could mine be OK with no "hold-open"? I got some feedback on Gunboards that said 1911 P-08 were made 13,000 in number and about 20% were unit marked. If true, my piece seems to be a little unique. I like it. I have decided to not refinish the piece. In its own way, it is quite beautiful. Should pop some eyes along the way. Even as it is, I suspect it might be worth a couple hundred...What do you think?

03-22-2010, 07:07 PM	#6
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	The German military didn't mandate the hold-open until May 1914. Or was it August? Anyway, a lot, but not all of those made before then were modified.

03-22-2010, 07:15 PM	#7
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Reed, Although the "hold open" that locks back the toggle with an empty magazine was part of the original Luger design it was not included on P-08 military lugers until 1913. At that point, earlier P-08 lugers were retrofitted with the hold open, however, some were not, especially Bavarian Army lugers. I am not able to acces your photos but there is a good posibility that your 1911 Luger was never modified with the hold open. In my opinion, this does not enhance or detract from the value of your Luger, which has little collector value anyway because of the chrome job. Enjoy this gun for what it is. The unit marking and (possibly) lack of hold open, and the probable WWII GI chrome job are part of its special history. KFS

03-22-2010, 07:22 PM	#8
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Reed, Most of the early guns were retrofitted with a hold open, except for those issued to the Bavarians, like yours. I think you're wise not to attempt a refinish, the gun will never be "right". I would think of the chroming as part of the gun's rich history. Regards, Norm

03-23-2010, 06:35 AM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Reed, it's a shame about the chrome/nickel finish as the gun seems to have been in excellent condition at the time the deed was done. I have a brother to your 1911, it's serial number 3268e and grip strap marked B.1.A.F.1.13.

03-23-2010, 07:19 AM	#11
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Collector grade or not, it still looks nice chromed, though original finished would be best. It would almost be a intresting "sub set" in Luger collecting to have a collection of Vet. bring back Lugers that they had chromed/nickled/carved grip, ect. that personalized their bring back Luger. Most any Luger with a bring back history is intresting. Regards, Bill

03-23-2010, 08:27 AM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Reed, the A.F. marking indicates Artillerie zu Fuss or Foot artillery as opposed to Field Artillery. Foot artillery were "heavies". Each regiment was made up of two battalions, a heavy field howitzer (15cm) battalion and a Mortar (21cm) battalion. The mortar battalion consisted of two batteries of four mortars each. These were batteries 5 & 6. The howitzer battalion consisted of batteries 1 thru 4; each battery had four guns.

03-23-2010, 08:38 AM	#14
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	They sound formidable, George! Wouldn't want to be on the receiving end. FN

03-23-2010, 08:47 AM	#16
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George, again great info Good stuff. Regardless, our two pieces could have been sitting side by side at some common chow table, or at a staff meeting in the field. Would love to have them both hanging on my wall. Some story they would tell. Regards Reed

03-23-2010, 08:52 AM	#17
colreed User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: near Houston Posts: 22 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks JS for you kind and encouraging words. She is obviously well built, and with a smooth, tight action that has a sound that screams of perfection. She'll be 100 next year. Wow. Regards Reed

03-23-2010, 02:16 PM	#18
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Well built they are. I have 199f used in South West Africa. Smooth and perfect is a understatement. Enjoy the feeling of perfection. Piet