Help to figure this Luger out??

Jasta2 · 12-20-2009, 09:05 AM

Sorry I have no pictures of yet. Spotted this at a gun shop 100 miles away and did not have my camera.If you guys give me a hand I just might buy it. It looked rather strange, it is in quite nice condition. It looks to be all matching (the dealer said it was a collectable and would not let me work the action). It is a DWM with 1920 stamped over the 1918 in the dbl date fashion. The only proofs are a few commercial Nitro proofs. No military proofs at all, yet it has what I take to be the military s/n system and a sear safety added. For those that have the 'Lugers at Random' book it looks like a cross between the 1920 commerical (pg180) and a 1920 Police/military (page 178) with the dbl date as in pg 176. I guess what puzzels me most is why no militay proofs? The general note on the 1920 Police/military looks to maybe explain this away, with the only exception be the dbl date chamber. Any ideas? It had a 4 digit s/n with a letter. MMM?? I did not notice if the nitro proof on the left side of the chamber was vertical or horizonal. I take that would be a great help. From what I've read there are many,many, versions that came out of the postwar rework programs.Oh, the asking price was $1,500. Thanks,Bill

DavidJayUden · 12-20-2009, 09:11 AM

I'll let others answer the marking questions but from what I have heard $1500 seems borderline on the high side. Sort of the Last Man Out price; it may be worth it but it will be a long time before you can get that money back on it. If you really like it and want it go for it, but otherwise keep looking.
Merry Christmas!
dju

Curly1 · 12-20-2009, 10:11 AM

Won't let you work the action???? Will he let you break it down to verify all numbered parts are matching??? If not I would pass.

Jasta2 · 12-20-2009, 12:47 PM

I would insist on breaking it down for an inspection first and if it is not a Frankenluger, I wouldask his 'best' price.
Bill

lugerholsterrepair · 12-20-2009, 01:50 PM

These Commercial/Police guns are not highly desirable on the Luger market in my opinion. The chamber date of 1918 certainly calls for military acceptance marks. $1500 in today's market will buy you a mighty fine military without all the monkey business and mileage on your car.
Any dealer that will not let you work the action or inspect a $1500 pistol is some kind of nut. Or has something he dosen't want you to see.
I would keep looking...

Jerry Burney

Lyn Islaub · 12-20-2009, 05:07 PM

Jerry has passed on some wise advice to you and I would recommend that you take it. Too many unanswered questions with this pistol to risk $1,500 on.
Lyn

Jasta2 · 12-20-2009, 10:00 PM

Why would this 'Dbl Date' Luger have only a few commercial nitro proofs? Would that not be a contridiction?
Bill

Edward Tinker · 12-20-2009, 11:17 PM

Bill, first, there are few "double dates", it is a 1918 that received the 1920 reichswehr property stamping. There should be military proof and acceptance on the right. You do see post WW1 that have been scrubbed on the right and you also see them with markings on the right and a crown N on the left.

All that said, and its way to high in price....

Ed

Jasta2 · 12-21-2009, 10:31 AM

Thanks Ed, I Understand the property 1920/21 property marks. What is funny is that the finish looks so nice with very little wear and it looks as if there were never any military proofs, only nitro. One point reflecting on the proofs are, the 1918 was there, but does not show nearly as well as the 1920 does. Could all of the military proofs, along with the depth of the '1918' have been buffed/removed, then nitro proofed, refinished, when the sear safety was added? I will give the gun shop a call to see if the nitro proof on the left of the reciever is vertical or horizontal should be some help. Vertical would be post 1920, correct?
Tks,Bill

Ron Smith · 12-21-2009, 10:55 AM

Bill,

A 1918 production Luger with commercial proofs, doesn't make sense.

It is possible that it is a Russian Capture / VOPO rework with East German Crown/N proofs. They are very similar to standard German commercial proofs.

Just a WAG , but without seeing it, it's about the only explanation I can think of.

Don M · 12-21-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasta2

From what I've read there are many,many, versions that came out of the postwar rework programs.

Bill, I think this observation is key. Apparently, many Lugers were assembled shortly after WWI from components that were in various stages of manufacture/acceptance at the end of the war. This can explain the commercial proof and lack of military acceptance stamps and Imperial proof.

Jasta2 · 12-21-2009, 01:07 PM

Just talked with the gunshop owner. The Luger s/n is 8037 with no letter and the 'crown n' proof is laying or it's side or horizonal. Info from my book states that the horizonal nitro proof is only found on some commercial Lugers in the 1906 to 1914 era, and the vertical commercial nitro proofs are only found on post1920 manufactured Lugers. Is it posable that a commercial Luger end up with a dbl date and no military proofs? Or maybe it's just that when reworked that one stamp was done incorrectly. Sorry for all this questioning, but as I see it, the proofs are one of the main 'keys' to identify a Luger, so when I look one over (boy I've got alot to learn!) and the proofs do not to be correct, I take a 'red flag' should go off. Reading many post here on the Fourm, I see much is talked about wether a varitation of Luger should have this or that proof and this dbl date did not seem to add up to me. I got to ask!! Only way to learn is from the knowledge here on the Forum! I take maybe this was built from left over commercial parts and dated 1918, na, does does not sound right.
Thanks,Bill

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2009, 01:17 PM

[quote=Jasta2;170808]...Is it possible that a commercial Luger end up with a dbl date and no military proofs? NO, and the only double dates are 1920 1920's and 1921 and 1920 --- There is no such thing as a double date in the sense you are discussing. Well, except for the 1918/19 that you see, but they are few and far between...

Or maybe it's just that when reworked that one stamp was done incorrectly. Not sure what you mean...

I take maybe this was built from left over commercial parts and dated 1918, na, does does not sound right. NO, that is impossible, and if from left over parts, it was very unlikely that it was done by DWM in my opinion.

From above, I stick with what I said; this is a rework done by one of the smaller contractors who was making money.

Jasta2 · 12-21-2009, 01:56 PM

Thanks ED, My only question was why a 1920 over 1918 would have no mititary proofs and the nitro marks are in the 1906/14 fashion and not the vertical as the post 1920 are. If you think it was done my a smaller contractors, and that might explain why, that sounds fine with me.
Bill

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2009, 02:49 PM

Bill, your reasoning is what I was thinking too.

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 12-21-2009, 04:52 PM

There's no substitute for pictures

--Dwight

RJS · 12-22-2009, 10:37 PM

Bill: I think this is a gun I looked at also in Lebanon. This finish was really too good; I am guessing it was reblued at some point which hurts its value. Then the gun shop won't let you see the insides. Makes me assume it is not matching inside. I passed on it for now. But it does look really good.

12-20-2009, 09:05 AM	#1
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Help to figure this Luger out?? Sorry I have no pictures of yet. Spotted this at a gun shop 100 miles away and did not have my camera.If you guys give me a hand I just might buy it. It looked rather strange, it is in quite nice condition. It looks to be all matching (the dealer said it was a collectable and would not let me work the action). It is a DWM with 1920 stamped over the 1918 in the dbl date fashion. The only proofs are a few commercial Nitro proofs. No military proofs at all, yet it has what I take to be the military s/n system and a sear safety added. For those that have the 'Lugers at Random' book it looks like a cross between the 1920 commerical (pg180) and a 1920 Police/military (page 178) with the dbl date as in pg 176. I guess what puzzels me most is why no militay proofs? The general note on the 1920 Police/military looks to maybe explain this away, with the only exception be the dbl date chamber. Any ideas? It had a 4 digit s/n with a letter. MMM?? I did not notice if the nitro proof on the left side of the chamber was vertical or horizonal. I take that would be a great help. From what I've read there are many,many, versions that came out of the postwar rework programs.Oh, the asking price was $1,500. Thanks,Bill

12-20-2009, 10:11 AM	#3
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,234 Thanks: 116 Thanked 706 Times in 368 Posts	Won't let you work the action???? Will he let you break it down to verify all numbered parts are matching??? If not I would pass. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

12-20-2009, 01:50 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	These Commercial/Police guns are not highly desirable on the Luger market in my opinion. The chamber date of 1918 certainly calls for military acceptance marks. $1500 in today's market will buy you a mighty fine military without all the monkey business and mileage on your car. Any dealer that will not let you work the action or inspect a $1500 pistol is some kind of nut. Or has something he dosen't want you to see. I would keep looking... Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-20-2009, 11:17 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Bill, first, there are few "double dates", it is a 1918 that received the 1920 reichswehr property stamping. There should be military proof and acceptance on the right. You do see post WW1 that have been scrubbed on the right and you also see them with markings on the right and a crown N on the left. All that said, and its way to high in price.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2009, 10:55 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Bill, A 1918 production Luger with commercial proofs, doesn't make sense. It is possible that it is a Russian Capture / VOPO rework with East German Crown/N proofs. They are very similar to standard German commercial proofs. Just a WAG , but without seeing it, it's about the only explanation I can think of. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-20-2009, 09:11 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'll let others answer the marking questions but from what I have heard $1500 seems borderline on the high side. Sort of the Last Man Out price; it may be worth it but it will be a long time before you can get that money back on it. If you really like it and want it go for it, but otherwise keep looking. Merry Christmas! dju

12-20-2009, 12:47 PM	#4
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	I would insist on breaking it down for an inspection first and if it is not a Frankenluger, I wouldask his 'best' price. Bill

12-20-2009, 05:07 PM	#6
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Jerry has passed on some wise advice to you and I would recommend that you take it. Too many unanswered questions with this pistol to risk $1,500 on. Lyn

12-20-2009, 10:00 PM	#7
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Why would this 'Dbl Date' Luger have only a few commercial nitro proofs? Would that not be a contridiction? Bill

12-21-2009, 10:31 AM	#9
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thanks Ed, I Understand the property 1920/21 property marks. What is funny is that the finish looks so nice with very little wear and it looks as if there were never any military proofs, only nitro. One point reflecting on the proofs are, the 1918 was there, but does not show nearly as well as the 1920 does. Could all of the military proofs, along with the depth of the '1918' have been buffed/removed, then nitro proofed, refinished, when the sear safety was added? I will give the gun shop a call to see if the nitro proof on the left of the reciever is vertical or horizontal should be some help. Vertical would be post 1920, correct? Tks,Bill

12-21-2009, 01:07 PM	#12
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Just talked with the gunshop owner. The Luger s/n is 8037 with no letter and the 'crown n' proof is laying or it's side or horizonal. Info from my book states that the horizonal nitro proof is only found on some commercial Lugers in the 1906 to 1914 era, and the vertical commercial nitro proofs are only found on post1920 manufactured Lugers. Is it posable that a commercial Luger end up with a dbl date and no military proofs? Or maybe it's just that when reworked that one stamp was done incorrectly. Sorry for all this questioning, but as I see it, the proofs are one of the main 'keys' to identify a Luger, so when I look one over (boy I've got alot to learn!) and the proofs do not to be correct, I take a 'red flag' should go off. Reading many post here on the Fourm, I see much is talked about wether a varitation of Luger should have this or that proof and this dbl date did not seem to add up to me. I got to ask!! Only way to learn is from the knowledge here on the Forum! I take maybe this was built from left over commercial parts and dated 1918, na, does does not sound right. Thanks,Bill

12-21-2009, 01:17 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	[quote=Jasta2;170808]...Is it possible that a commercial Luger end up with a dbl date and no military proofs? NO, and the only double dates are 1920 1920's and 1921 and 1920 --- There is no such thing as a double date in the sense you are discussing. Well, except for the 1918/19 that you see, but they are few and far between... Or maybe it's just that when reworked that one stamp was done incorrectly. Not sure what you mean... I take maybe this was built from left over commercial parts and dated 1918, na, does does not sound right. NO, that is impossible, and if from left over parts, it was very unlikely that it was done by DWM in my opinion. From above, I stick with what I said; this is a rework done by one of the smaller contractors who was making money. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2009, 01:56 PM	#14
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thanks ED, My only question was why a 1920 over 1918 would have no mititary proofs and the nitro marks are in the 1906/14 fashion and not the vertical as the post 1920 are. If you think it was done my a smaller contractors, and that might explain why, that sounds fine with me. Bill

12-21-2009, 02:49 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Bill, your reasoning is what I was thinking too. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2009, 04:52 PM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	There's no substitute for pictures --Dwight

12-22-2009, 10:37 PM	#17
RJS User Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vermont Posts: 45 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Bill: I think this is a gun I looked at also in Lebanon. This finish was really too good; I am guessing it was reblued at some point which hurts its value. Then the gun shop won't let you see the insides. Makes me assume it is not matching inside. I passed on it for now. But it does look really good.