Erfurt Military or Commercial??

Thor · 12-15-2009, 09:49 AM

Got an Erfurt in for restoration and I am not completely sure what it is but I would call it a 9mm Erfurt Commercial Alphabet Luger. It has the following markings and description. Fully matched parts.

Barrel-Matching SN to frame and receiver, it has the SN and barrel guage on bottom chamber end. It has a gothic letter and Crown over RC on the Top barrel, chamber end at 10 oclock position, it has an Erfurt proof eagle on same end, 1:30 positiion. Barrel witness is slightly different angle and strike from frame but aligned pretty good. Barrel is 9mm and only 3 &7/8" in length, muzzle to breechface.

Receiver-Erfurt cut on top, NO chamber markings, 4 digit SN in military style on left receiver front, NO Crown N proof. Is does NOT have any Acceptance stamps or proofs on right receiver front. Crown over gothic letter on ejector. Top of receiver has
mill markings remaining on top of forks and top rear so it looks like an Erfurt receiver.

Extractor-matched number and crown over gothic letter

Breechblock-Erfurt eagle proofed with matching number left side.

Sideplate-Matched with crown over gothic letter.

Front toggle link-Crown over Erfurt, very light logo strike, matched number with crown over gothic letter on top.

Rear toggle link-matched number with crown over RC on top.

Frame-Gothic Letter under a crown at several locations, SN in the "p" block.

Remaining number parts match, including HO. Firing pin is WWI style with one light vent groove cut in it. This is not a WWII firing pin. No number on pin.

Things that are confusing to me for a military gun.
Why no 4" barrel, probably a Versailles requirment?
Why no acceptance markings on right receiver?

Things confusing about a Commercial gun for me.
Why no Crown over N
Most Alphabet Lugers are Crown N proofed.
Most are 30 Luger
Most are DWM

Just a puzzlement.

color me Corn......fused!

Dwight Gruber · 12-15-2009, 12:59 PM

Thor,

At your measurement, the barrel is only 1.5mm short of the 100mm standard length. Very close to proper, and one can easily imagine this to be the reason for the Revisions-Commission certification.

If it were me, I'd look very closely for evidence that the date and inspection/proof marks were removed--particularly because the barrel proof eagle still exists. If the Erfurt hallmark is a light stamping, this suggests to me that the gun was refinished at some time.

Is the sear bar relieved?

--Dwight

Thor · 12-15-2009, 01:18 PM

Dwight, thanks for the reply, no evidence in strong sunlight of date or receiver markings on right side. NO halo on any of the Serial numbers, definetly rust blue, but really old and brown underneath.

Lugerdoc · 12-16-2009, 09:58 AM

Thor, Erfurt did not officially build any commerical lugers. If they had, there would have been no requirement for the Imperial acceptance making on all parts. I agree with Dwight, that this is probably a Weimar era rework of a late WW1 Erfurt military. TH

Thor · 12-16-2009, 12:14 PM

Thanks Tom, here are some before pics showing markings of this strange Luger.
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB1S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB3S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB4S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB5S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB6S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB7S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB8S.JPG
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB9S.JPG

Vlim · 12-16-2009, 12:32 PM

The best I can make of it, is that at a given time, the receiver was replaced.

If this was done commercially, it would have had to be reproofed. Perhaps this repair was done during the 'wild times' of 1918-1920.

Norme · 12-16-2009, 12:38 PM

Thor, That barrel sure looks like standard Erfurt manufacture. Has it been shortened at the muzzle? Regards, Norm

Thor · 12-16-2009, 12:42 PM

The barrel looks all original, no shortening at the muzzle, the reciever looks like an Erfurt with heavy mill markings on top of the receiver forks.
http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB4S.JPG

Dwight Gruber · 12-16-2009, 01:00 PM

Thor,

It's a tough call. From your picture HPB65 I really want to say that the date has been removed. I also really want the gun in my hands to examine before I'd commit.

The Erfurt stamp is the weakest I have ever seen, but the strength of the inspection mark and serial number--as well as the overall surface characteristics of the part--suggest that it has not been worked.

--Dwight

12-15-2009, 09:49 AM	#1
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Erfurt Military or Commercial?? Got an Erfurt in for restoration and I am not completely sure what it is but I would call it a 9mm Erfurt Commercial Alphabet Luger. It has the following markings and description. Fully matched parts. Barrel-Matching SN to frame and receiver, it has the SN and barrel guage on bottom chamber end. It has a gothic letter and Crown over RC on the Top barrel, chamber end at 10 oclock position, it has an Erfurt proof eagle on same end, 1:30 positiion. Barrel witness is slightly different angle and strike from frame but aligned pretty good. Barrel is 9mm and only 3 &7/8" in length, muzzle to breechface. Receiver-Erfurt cut on top, NO chamber markings, 4 digit SN in military style on left receiver front, NO Crown N proof. Is does NOT have any Acceptance stamps or proofs on right receiver front. Crown over gothic letter on ejector. Top of receiver has mill markings remaining on top of forks and top rear so it looks like an Erfurt receiver. Extractor-matched number and crown over gothic letter Breechblock-Erfurt eagle proofed with matching number left side. Sideplate-Matched with crown over gothic letter. Front toggle link-Crown over Erfurt, very light logo strike, matched number with crown over gothic letter on top. Rear toggle link-matched number with crown over RC on top. Frame-Gothic Letter under a crown at several locations, SN in the "p" block. Remaining number parts match, including HO. Firing pin is WWI style with one light vent groove cut in it. This is not a WWII firing pin. No number on pin. Things that are confusing to me for a military gun. Why no 4" barrel, probably a Versailles requirment? Why no acceptance markings on right receiver? Things confusing about a Commercial gun for me. Why no Crown over N Most Alphabet Lugers are Crown N proofed. Most are 30 Luger Most are DWM Just a puzzlement. color me Corn......fused! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-15-2009, 01:18 PM	#3
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Dwight, thanks for the reply, no evidence in strong sunlight of date or receiver markings on right side. NO halo on any of the Serial numbers, definetly rust blue, but really old and brown underneath. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-16-2009, 09:58 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Thor, Erfurt did not officially build any commerical lugers. If they had, there would have been no requirement for the Imperial acceptance making on all parts. I agree with Dwight, that this is probably a Weimar era rework of a late WW1 Erfurt military. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-16-2009, 12:14 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Thanks Tom, here are some before pics showing markings of this strange Luger. http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB1S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB3S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB4S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB5S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB6S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB7S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB8S.JPG http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB9S.JPG __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-16-2009, 12:42 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	The barrel looks all original, no shortening at the muzzle, the reciever looks like an Erfurt with heavy mill markings on top of the receiver forks. http://members.rennlist.org/lugerman/HPB4S.JPG __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-15-2009, 12:59 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Thor, At your measurement, the barrel is only 1.5mm short of the 100mm standard length. Very close to proper, and one can easily imagine this to be the reason for the Revisions-Commission certification. If it were me, I'd look very closely for evidence that the date and inspection/proof marks were removed--particularly because the barrel proof eagle still exists. If the Erfurt hallmark is a light stamping, this suggests to me that the gun was refinished at some time. Is the sear bar relieved? --Dwight

12-16-2009, 12:32 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	The best I can make of it, is that at a given time, the receiver was replaced. If this was done commercially, it would have had to be reproofed. Perhaps this repair was done during the 'wild times' of 1918-1920.

12-16-2009, 12:38 PM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Thor, That barrel sure looks like standard Erfurt manufacture. Has it been shortened at the muzzle? Regards, Norm

12-16-2009, 01:00 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Thor, It's a tough call. From your picture HPB65 I really want to say that the date has been removed. I also really want the gun in my hands to examine before I'd commit. The Erfurt stamp is the weakest I have ever seen, but the strength of the inspection mark and serial number--as well as the overall surface characteristics of the part--suggest that it has not been worked. --Dwight