C/N Question

FNorm · 12-07-2009, 08:37 PM

I can't find the reference. Seems I have CRS disease. When did the C/N go from horizontal to vertical? I think it was 1918?

FN

MFC · 12-08-2009, 01:08 AM

This is from Dwight Gruber's commercial database commentary.

On Proof Marks

The identification of a particular Luger variation sometimes turns on the characteristic of the proof which has been applied to the gun. This is particularly the case with the 1914 (or 1916) Commercial variation and the 20DWM, identical guns whose sole difference is the orientation of the commercial proof mark horizontal on the 1914, vertical on the 20DWM.

As collectors we tend to act as though proof marks are applied as a willful factory designation to differentiate production. Because of this various correspondents have developed sometimes elaborate theories as to why some guns are transitional in nature; or appear to be numbered out of sequence in a production range such as the range from sn 73282 to sn 76071 in which are found both 20DWM and 1914 Commercial.

As noted earlier, proofing of commercial firearms in Germany was done by state proof houses. This designation of the proof stamp and its application was entirely the responsibility of the proof house itself. Thus, identification and designation of particular variants on the basis of proof marks is entirely coincidental to their application, and literally has nothing whatever to do with manufacture (or rework) identification of the guns themselves.

So, at some time between 1916 and 1920, the proof house which served DWM in Berlin changed its stamping procedure from a sideways, lazy c/N on the left receiver to an upright c/N. There is no documentation forthcoming as to when (or why) this was changed, and there is no ancillary information in the database itself which suggests dates any closer.

A simple explanation can be inferred, however, for the out of sequence production problem. These guns were simply not sent to be proofed in serial-number order.

Production of commercial Lugers was very small during the war, and thus cannot have been much of a priority for DWM. It is easy to imagine that completed pistols sat for a long time before being sent to be proofed, perhaps waiting for a large enough batch to make it worthwhile. It is nonsensical to imagine that anyone cared whether or not a strict serial number sequence was maintained once the guns themselves had been completed. Guns could have been stored out of sequence, or they could have been selected for a proof run simply because they were easy to reach there is no knowing, and it really makes no difference. There is simply nothing more meaningful to be inferred from the range of changeover.

The question remains as to the actual date of the change from lazy c/N to upright c/N. Perhaps something is suggested by the numbers.

Less than 5,000 commercial pistols were made from the beginning of the war to 1916. It is important to note here that some upright c/N commercials are reported late in this production range. The changeover range from 1916 to the last lazy c/N pistol reported is 550 guns. Production from the last lazy c/N report to the next datable example a 1920 chamber date is 7,899 pistols.

These figures, and the pattern of reports in the database, suggest to me with high confidence that the proof changeover from lazy c/N to upright c/N occurred well before the end 1916.

FNorm · 12-08-2009, 09:13 AM

Thanks, Mike,

FN

Lugerdoc · 12-08-2009, 10:50 AM

FN, You will also find the vertical C/N proofing on some M1906 & 1908 DWM commericals. TH

Ron Wood · 12-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

FN, You will also find the vertical C/N proofing on some M1906 & 1908 DWM commericals. TH

Tom,
I have never seen this. Are they reworks? Are they late production, i.e. 1920 Commercial, made up from existing parts?

12-07-2009, 08:37 PM	#1
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	C/N Question I can't find the reference. Seems I have CRS disease. When did the C/N go from horizontal to vertical? I think it was 1918? FN

12-08-2009, 01:08 AM	#2
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	This is from Dwight Gruber's commercial database commentary. On Proof Marks The identification of a particular Luger variation sometimes turns on the characteristic of the proof which has been applied to the gun. This is particularly the case with the 1914 (or 1916) Commercial variation and the 20DWM, identical guns whose sole difference is the orientation of the commercial proof mark horizontal on the 1914, vertical on the 20DWM. As collectors we tend to act as though proof marks are applied as a willful factory designation to differentiate production. Because of this various correspondents have developed sometimes elaborate theories as to why some guns are transitional in nature; or appear to be numbered out of sequence in a production range such as the range from sn 73282 to sn 76071 in which are found both 20DWM and 1914 Commercial. As noted earlier, proofing of commercial firearms in Germany was done by state proof houses. This designation of the proof stamp and its application was entirely the responsibility of the proof house itself. Thus, identification and designation of particular variants on the basis of proof marks is entirely coincidental to their application, and literally has nothing whatever to do with manufacture (or rework) identification of the guns themselves. So, at some time between 1916 and 1920, the proof house which served DWM in Berlin changed its stamping procedure from a sideways, lazy c/N on the left receiver to an upright c/N. There is no documentation forthcoming as to when (or why) this was changed, and there is no ancillary information in the database itself which suggests dates any closer. A simple explanation can be inferred, however, for the out of sequence production problem. These guns were simply not sent to be proofed in serial-number order. Production of commercial Lugers was very small during the war, and thus cannot have been much of a priority for DWM. It is easy to imagine that completed pistols sat for a long time before being sent to be proofed, perhaps waiting for a large enough batch to make it worthwhile. It is nonsensical to imagine that anyone cared whether or not a strict serial number sequence was maintained once the guns themselves had been completed. Guns could have been stored out of sequence, or they could have been selected for a proof run simply because they were easy to reach there is no knowing, and it really makes no difference. There is simply nothing more meaningful to be inferred from the range of changeover. The question remains as to the actual date of the change from lazy c/N to upright c/N. Perhaps something is suggested by the numbers. Less than 5,000 commercial pistols were made from the beginning of the war to 1916. It is important to note here that some upright c/N commercials are reported late in this production range. The changeover range from 1916 to the last lazy c/N pistol reported is 550 guns. Production from the last lazy c/N report to the next datable example a 1920 chamber date is 7,899 pistols. These figures, and the pattern of reports in the database, suggest to me with high confidence that the proof changeover from lazy c/N to upright c/N occurred well before the end 1916. __________________ Mike C.

12-08-2009, 10:50 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	FN, You will also find the vertical C/N proofing on some M1906 & 1908 DWM commericals. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-08-2009, 09:13 AM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Thanks, Mike, FN