8.15mm C96 Mauser cartridge???

[sheepherder]

I read about this over on the M1896 Mauser Forum; at least one member has such a Mauser Broomhandle chambered in it...I Googled it, and found a couple other references to it (it's supposed to be a very rare chambering, like the 7.65 Luger cartridge in the C96)...

http://1896mauser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=885

http://1896mauser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=888

But I can't find any pics...Does anyone have a pic of it??? Is it a bottleneck like the 7.63 Mauser cartridge??? It works out to ~.320"...Pretty much in between 7.63mm and 9mm...

Sounds interesting...

[Vlim]

Sounds a bit like the 8mm Roth and/or 8mm Roth-Steyr round. Perhaps a version chambered in one of those calibres for Army acceptance or trials in Austria?

[sheepherder]

That site states -

Cartridge believed to be known as 'DWM Case No. 580', with a mouth diameter of 8.12mm and a case length of 25.2mm.

8.15mm C96 #416868 belonging to Marty Jung

http://www.g6csy.net/c96/ammo.html

I got an email from the owner of the 8.15mm C96...It is definitely bottlenecked...Pic to follow...

[sheepherder]

Hmmmm...Here's a couple sites listing DWM cartridge numbers and what they are...

http://www.hellcat.be/dwm.htm

http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/Dwm.htm

[sheepherder]

Hmmmm...Here's a couple sites listing DWM cartridge numbers and what they are...

http://www.hellcat.be/dwm.htm

http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/Dwm.htm

[klaus 3338]

The 8,15 Mauser cartrige was a "prototype" cartrige (Versuchspatrone) and is very rare.

[alvin]

I still doubt the existence of 8,15m/m C96. There could be a few prototypes, but any production? (production....in my dictionary, even those 50 cartridge counter 1902 Parabellums could be called production). So far, the most sensible theory (to me) was that 8,15 created in Weimar era to offer a caliber bigger than 7,63, but smaller than 9. If it was ever put into production, the context is still missing -- to whom Mauser want to market this new caliber? Who would care a new caliber? German, most likely?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

If it was ever put into production, the context is still missing -- to whom Mauser want to market this new caliber?...

Here's a partial quote from the thread I linked in the first post -

Following World War I, the â??Treaty of Versaillesâ?? placed various restrictions on the German arms industry regarding the manufacture of armaments including pistols (quantity, barrel length, caliber, etc)...After all of the above is considered, it is clear ...that the first testing of the C96 8.15mm pistol began after the end of World War I. This was an attempt to comply with the particular Treaty restriction that forbade the German arms industry from manufacturing pistols in any caliber that had been used during the War.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by postino

Here's a partial quote from the thread I linked in the first post -

Following World War I, the â??Treaty of Versaillesâ?? placed various restrictions on the German arms industry regarding the manufacture of armaments including pistols (quantity, barrel length, caliber, etc)...After all of the above is considered, it is clear ...that the first testing of the C96 8.15mm pistol began after the end of World War I. This was an attempt to comply with the particular Treaty restriction that forbade the German arms industry from manufacturing pistols in any caliber that had been used during the War.

If this were the case, "...forbade the German arms industry from manufacturing pistols in any calibre that had been used during the war." there would have been a restriction on the manufacture of 7.65 (.32 auto) pistols which were the second most widely used military pistols by the military after the Parabellum. The Versailles restrictions are widely misunderstood and misinterpreted by modern day collectors.

Specifically the restrictions forbade the manufacture for export of military calibre weapons 7.92 mm and 9 mm Parabellum. This was most likely an effort to hinder the German arms industry's rebirth in the very competitive export arms business.

The treaty makes no mention of barrel length restrictions and permits production of military calibre small arms adequate to fullfil the needs of an army of 100,000.

[alvin]

Regarding to whom this new caliber could be attractive, or what's the market driving factor at that time:

1) Not German. Weimar military supplier was Simson, and caliber was 9. Mauser had no space there;
2) Not Asian. Spanish gunmakers could freely pick up any caliber, but all of them went 7,63, market driven;
3) Not Russian. Otherwise, they would not 'invent' 7,62x25;
4) Most prewar 9x25 went to South America. Not sure why. But looks like South America commercial market had some need on larger caliber C96.... If there were market need on bigger caliber, South America could be one.

[Vlim]

I still think that the most likely explanation is that a C96 in that calibre was designed for a country/army that already had that calibre in use. I think this also explains why a .30 luger version of the C96 may have been developed: Interchangeability and standardization.

Apart from that, it's an easy modification on a C96.

[Douglas Jr.]

Originally Posted by alvin

4) Most prewar 9x25 went to South America. Not sure why. But looks like South America commercial market had some need on larger caliber C96.... If there were market need on bigger caliber, South America could be one.

Alvin,

In my opinion this is more a myth than the truth about these guns. I live in South America and can tell you that I only saw ONE C96 chambered to 9mm Mauser Export here. If the South America was the primary market for these guns, then I suspect more examples would be around.

Sometimes it is funny to see that, whenever some authors find a very unusual or apparently unexplained variation, they fastly labeled as "intended to South America" or "Far East" market... but this is not often the case. The goes for the rare Mauser Model 1912 (the Nickl oversized 1910 pistol) that some authors claim to have been sold to the Brazilian Navy. Never saw one, even in museums, neither.

Douglas.

[alvin]

Hi, Doug. For C96, I confirm that "Far East" does have huge amount of them, rack after rack in the museums, but almost none of those could be classified as rare (if I don't count some special non-factory markings). Probably the only exception was a few factory engraved ones, but the engraving patterns were seen before. They do carry tons of "one-of-a-kind" hand-made C96s, but those were not Mauser.

Regarding 9x25, there are a few on US market recently. I believe those 9x25 were made by Mauser for South American market before 1910. For some reason, US gun market is like a magnet which attracted many guns from other places. For example, PIA just sold a nice Argentina LRH with matching shoulder stock, if it were not marked so on its magazine well, who would know its provenance.

[Douglas Jr.]

I believe that Mauser sold a lot of brooms down here before WWI. A few more came through German veterans that immigrated right after WWI. Thus the highest serial numbers I ever are from Wartime Commercials. Of course there are some M30s here and there, but very few when compared with pre-WWI pistols.

After 1918 Mauser's market share was overan by Spanish guns, mostly. The numbers of copies of Colts and S&W MP that came from Spain and that are still here is impressive.

I own a 9X25 C96, serial number 170.xxx. Its is the only one I ever seen in hands.

Greetings,

Douglas.

[alvin]

Would like to show one more postwar myth.

I saw this picture on the Internet. I would believe this one-of-a-kind being a real one.

Could this be a target pistolet made by Mauser for 1936 Berlin Olympics.... Mauser must prepare something for that game.... or, some other important sports activity.....

[Douglas Jr.]

Very strange...
If intended for competition it would never have the standard sights. Mauser would have fit it with a fine tuned sight. Besides that what a NS marked hammer would be doing in a 30s Broomhandle?

[alvin]

I agree that it might not be a target gun. That's just a wild guess. Another pix

Just experimenting removable barrel did not have to make it so complex.

[sheepherder]

Is it a "quick detachable" barrel??? (I don't read French)...Maybe a quarter-turn and pull it off???

[klaus 3338]

In the Brandt- Müller book Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges Volume III is the cartridge described as made for a Mauser experimental model (C96) bearing the designation Model 1930. In its outer appearance it corresponds to the cartridge 7,63 Mauser and may easily be mistaken for it. The cartridge index of the firm DWM merely contains a note saying that his was an experimental round. The two bullets types DWM Nr. 501 and 502 can be distinguished only by their respective base (501 is hollow, 502 is flat and straight) and the different bullets weights from this fact.
Head stamp: K DWM K 580

I do not find the 7,63 Mauser dummy yet, but I found the .30 Luger which also show a number on the bullet.

[Vlim]

Klaus,

Nice detail photo of the 7,65 para / .30 luger cutaway round.

Here's a photo of the 7.63 Mauser 403 from DWM, turned into an exercise round. Shown for comparison is a 9x19 para exercise round.