Need Info Please.

navaraute · 04-01-2009, 10:20 AM

I was recently given this Lugar after my father in law passed away. He fought aganist the germans in the italian resistance. I am amazed by the knowledge of everone who answers all the questions. After looking around your site I have learned a few things. My lugar has a reciver proof for the Dutch air force contracts. I think it may have been re-blued as there is no strawing on the trigger. All the parts have the same last 2 numbers of the seiral no stamped on them,at least all the ones i can see with out pulling it apart which i am not game enough to do in case I can't get it back together. It is a 9mm. I would love any info that you guys can give me. Is the brass plate on the side original and if it is , is that the year of manufacture as i can't see it anywhere else. I would love to shoot it but don't know if that is a good idea or not. Thanks in advance for your info.

John Sabato · 04-01-2009, 10:43 AM

This is a Dutch Luger... more knowledgeable folks will be along to tell you more... Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Piet · 04-01-2009, 03:27 PM

Looks like a beautiful Luger. Can't wait for the specialist to answer. I have a special bond with the Netherlands as my forefather came from there in 1682. Good luck on caring for it.
Piet

Ron Wood · 04-01-2009, 03:44 PM

A nice looking "for real" M11 Dutch Luger. Most Dutch Lugers were periodically refurbished, but I think your gun may have been refinished at a later date and not by the Dutch arsenal. Still, it is a scarce and desirable variation. Your father-in-law has passed on a small treasure. Congratulations.

Vlim · 04-01-2009, 05:44 PM

Hi,

You got good info here. It is indeed a Dutch contract luger, produced by DWM for use in the Dutch East Indies Colonies. The 'airforce' has nothing to do with this, it is an old mistake that made it into several reference books. The KOL logo on the receiver is the property mark of the Dutch Departement of Colonies. The pistol was produced in 1928 and the brass tag was added by the Dutch KNIL (East Indies army). 24 is the gun inventory number, not the production year. The brass tag suggests that the pistol was in use with the military police.

The blueing has been done at a later date and is not Dutch. Nice gun, although the new reblue did hurt it's collecting value.

navaraute · 04-02-2009, 03:59 AM

Thanks guys for such qucik and informative replies, it is great to learn more about this pistol. Maybe you guys can guide me on whether i should shoot it or if it has any value as a collectors piece. Also Vlim, can you tell me what it would have looked like if it had been re-blued by the Dutch armoury. Any one want to suggest what $$ it would be worth aprox.Thanks.

Vlim · 04-02-2009, 06:32 AM

Hi,

Your pistol has been reblued using the salt dip method, this produces a more glossy, black finish. The Dutch used the old rust blue method, producing a somewhat more dull looking deeper blue. The grips on the scan below are reproductions, used for handling the gun.

Mauser720 · 04-02-2009, 09:45 AM

navaraute -

One of the questions you have asked is whether this pistol should be shot? You mentioned that as far as you can tell all the serial numbers match. If this is the case, then you may want to consider not firing it since if you break even one of these serially numbered parts, you will dramatically decrease the value. For example, if the extractor were to break (which is one of the more common things to break) your pistol will be worth about half what it was before that part got broken.

In this case, since the rebluing was not done by the Dutch, the collector value has already been hurt somewhat. So in my opinion, why risk a furthur reduction in the value by firing it and breaking a serially numbered part?

I hope someone who knows more about this particular variation will give you an estimate on the value; however, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is worth quite a bit more than most Lugers since this is a seldom encountered variation.

Mauser720 - Ron

Vlim · 04-02-2009, 10:10 AM

I would even go so far as to consider stripping it of the salt dip blue and getting it reblued using the rust blue method....(by someone who knows what he's doing)

Then the trigger, takedown lever and safety catch can be returned to their original straw color as well.

The sear bar has been modified in a perculiar way, btw. Probably a P08-style sear that was modified to work with the 1906-style safety catch.

Edward Tinker · 04-02-2009, 10:12 AM

Even reblued, i think it is worth $900-$1000 (normal reblued luger is worth around $600-$700).

I love these guns, although only own one dutch FN right now

ed

navaraute · 04-03-2009, 06:54 AM

Thanks so much for all the knowledge you guys have shared with me. I was wondering how hard these lugars are to pull apart and get back together, is there somewhere that gives step by step instructions so i do this in the right order. I don't want to stuff it up.
Vlim, as for the sear bar in your previous comment, i don't know if my father in law did this modification but he always did something to every gun he owned so if it was wrestled off him it couldn't be used on him! He was funny with things like that.
Also do you know (or know where to find) what the other letters on the brass plate represent? Thanks

P.S I only just figured out how to thank you guys on your posts. Derrrrrrr

alanint · 04-03-2009, 07:20 AM

One of the quickest ways to learn Luger take-down is to google it on "You Tube" there are several step by step films on how to disassemble the Luger

raygun · 04-03-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navaraute

Thanks so much for all the knowledge you guys have shared with me. I was wondering how hard these lugars are to pull apart and get back together, is there somewhere that gives step by step instructions so i do this in the right order. I don't want to stuff it up.

hello navaraute

welcome to the wonderfull world of Luger collectors and the small 'elite" group of we "Dutch Luger" collectors!

May I ask which country you hail from , it might help us better answer your questions.

I have a 1912 Dutch Luger , and here is a link to the thread I posted up here when I was learning about it . The thread may help answer some of your questions.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=19162

Stripping the Luger is quite simple and there are plenty of books and manuals on how to do it . However beware that in reassembly it is actually possible to reassemble completely without engaging the mainspring , you will know if you have done this as there will be no tension when you draw back the toggle . you must be carefull to engage the link under the mainspring hook, holding it upsidedown helps.

here are a couple of How too's

http://www.marstar.ca/AssemblyLugerPistol.htm

http://www.gunsworld.com/p08/p08_ad1_us.html

please note , there is no need in the course of normal service to strip beyond the removal of the toggle train from the barrel assembly and perhaps the firing pin retainer and firing pin or striker.
Also be carefull removing the grips , on some models if the saftey catch is not correctly positioned you can break off a corner of the grip panel !

kind regards
chris

navaraute · 04-03-2009, 08:50 AM

Chris, thanks for the links, i look forward to checking them out.
I am only new to this and i can't believe how much info is on this site. Do you have any more info on the Dutch lugars? I would like to find out more about it.
I'm from Australia. I looked at your thread v interesting. Will have to read some of those books.

raygun · 04-03-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navaraute

Chris, thanks for the links, i look forward to checking them out.
I am only new to this and i can't believe how much info is on this site. Do you have any more info on the Dutch lugars? I would like to find out more about it.
I'm from Australia. I looked at your thread v interesting. Will have to read some of those books.

So there you go, we are fellow countrymen !

Not surprising there are quite a few Dutch Lugers here in Australia as large numbers of dutch soldiers and civilians were
rescued when the japanese invaded indonesia in 1942.

More than you will ever need to know about dutch lugers can be found in "The Dutch Luger" by Martens & de Vries . Its a beautifull book , very reasonably priced and contains much usefull info on lugers in general .

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?...ger+&x=18&y=16

Vlim · 04-03-2009, 11:42 AM

If you do a partial disassembly, check the parts for the presence of a GS marking. Many parts that were made locally in Indonesia by the Dutch army maintenance crew were marked with this 'GS' (for GeweermakersSchool) marking. Since the grip on the right is coarser than the one on the left, I suspect it will have a GS marking on the inside.

Attached is a photo of the sear bar on my Dutch KNIL luger with the D GS inscription.

Forgot to mention that the Dutch magazines come in several guises, normally completely unmarked:

-Nickle tube with wooden bottom and small retaining spring to keep the bottom piece in place.
-Nickle tube with wooden bottom and no retaining spring.
-Blued tube with wooden bottom and no retaining spring.
-Blued Haenel-Schmeisser marked tube with alu bottom.

navaraute · 04-04-2009, 12:09 AM

chris, i was wondering how you got on registering your lugar for shooting. I, like you did,only have visiting rights. Mine is with a mates dad who has a dealer lic, as i only have longarms lic. My mates dad seemed to think that it would be illigel as the barrel was too short. I am just applying for collector lic (for somthing else) and a h lic for the lugar. I would love to know how you got on up there getting all your stuff sorted out. And if you have any advice for me. thanks

raygun · 04-04-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navaraute

chris, i was wondering how you got on registering your lugar for shooting. I, like you did,only have visiting rights. Mine is with a mates dad who has a dealer lic, as i only have longarms lic. My mates dad seemed to think that it would be illigel as the barrel was too short. I am just applying for collector lic (for somthing else) and a h lic for the lugar. I would love to know how you got on up there getting all your stuff sorted out. And if you have any advice for me. thanks

nav , I have mine on a collectors license , thats the way to go .
I believe the barrel is too short for pistol shooting , has to be at least 120mm. depends what state you in as they all vary a little , but here you have to join a collectors club , establish a "theme" for your collection and then write a good story about why it is collectable for you PTA . I can help you with that, if need be . Its a slow process , but worth working through it . Once you have your license, then its just a matter of doing some research for your PTA . It doesn't have to be deactivated here , just a trigger lock and stored in a safe.

P.S. you better start with learning how to spell LUGER correctly !

navaraute · 04-06-2009, 08:51 AM

Chris, you are quite right about my spelling of LugEr. I will have to watch that. I was looking at the regs for nsw and the barrel has to be 100mm here as far as i can understand. But wheredo you mesure it from. Is it from the end of the barrel to where the round is chambered? I have got the paperwork for my C & H addition to my lic. Have to plow my way through it now! BTW looked up your signiture, 362nd infantry of usa, i totally agree.

Edward Tinker · 04-06-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navaraute

.... But wheredo you mesure it from. Is it from the end of the barrel to where the round is chambered? ....

Ask in YOUR country as it might be different.

In the USA and Canada, it is from the face of the barrel to the end of the barrel, drop a long pencil down, measure it (the part that goes down into the empty chamber onto the closed breach) and that is the length of the barrel, and is why you saw so many Canuks put 6 inch barrels onto their lugErs.

Ed

04-01-2009, 10:20 AM	#1
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Need Info Please. I was recently given this Lugar after my father in law passed away. He fought aganist the germans in the italian resistance. I am amazed by the knowledge of everone who answers all the questions. After looking around your site I have learned a few things. My lugar has a reciver proof for the Dutch air force contracts. I think it may have been re-blued as there is no strawing on the trigger. All the parts have the same last 2 numbers of the seiral no stamped on them,at least all the ones i can see with out pulling it apart which i am not game enough to do in case I can't get it back together. It is a 9mm. I would love any info that you guys can give me. Is the brass plate on the side original and if it is , is that the year of manufacture as i can't see it anywhere else. I would love to shoot it but don't know if that is a good idea or not. Thanks in advance for your info. Attached Thumbnails

04-01-2009, 10:43 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	This is a Dutch Luger... more knowledgeable folks will be along to tell you more... Welcome to the Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-01-2009, 03:44 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,005 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,689 Posts	A nice looking "for real" M11 Dutch Luger. Most Dutch Lugers were periodically refurbished, but I think your gun may have been refinished at a later date and not by the Dutch arsenal. Still, it is a scarce and desirable variation. Your father-in-law has passed on a small treasure. Congratulations. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-02-2009, 03:59 AM	#6
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ron & Vlim. Thanks guys for such qucik and informative replies, it is great to learn more about this pistol. Maybe you guys can guide me on whether i should shoot it or if it has any value as a collectors piece. Also Vlim, can you tell me what it would have looked like if it had been re-blued by the Dutch armoury. Any one want to suggest what $$ it would be worth aprox.Thanks.

04-02-2009, 06:32 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Your pistol has been reblued using the salt dip method, this produces a more glossy, black finish. The Dutch used the old rust blue method, producing a somewhat more dull looking deeper blue. The grips on the scan below are reproductions, used for handling the gun. Attached Thumbnails

04-01-2009, 03:27 PM	#3
Piet User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: South Africa Posts: 143 Thanks: 155 Thanked 35 Times in 22 Posts	Looks like a beautiful Luger. Can't wait for the specialist to answer. I have a special bond with the Netherlands as my forefather came from there in 1682. Good luck on caring for it. Piet

04-01-2009, 05:44 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, You got good info here. It is indeed a Dutch contract luger, produced by DWM for use in the Dutch East Indies Colonies. The 'airforce' has nothing to do with this, it is an old mistake that made it into several reference books. The KOL logo on the receiver is the property mark of the Dutch Departement of Colonies. The pistol was produced in 1928 and the brass tag was added by the Dutch KNIL (East Indies army). 24 is the gun inventory number, not the production year. The brass tag suggests that the pistol was in use with the military police. The blueing has been done at a later date and is not Dutch. Nice gun, although the new reblue did hurt it's collecting value.

04-02-2009, 09:45 AM	#8
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	navaraute - One of the questions you have asked is whether this pistol should be shot? You mentioned that as far as you can tell all the serial numbers match. If this is the case, then you may want to consider not firing it since if you break even one of these serially numbered parts, you will dramatically decrease the value. For example, if the extractor were to break (which is one of the more common things to break) your pistol will be worth about half what it was before that part got broken. In this case, since the rebluing was not done by the Dutch, the collector value has already been hurt somewhat. So in my opinion, why risk a furthur reduction in the value by firing it and breaking a serially numbered part? I hope someone who knows more about this particular variation will give you an estimate on the value; however, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is worth quite a bit more than most Lugers since this is a seldom encountered variation. Mauser720 - Ron

04-02-2009, 10:10 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	I would even go so far as to consider stripping it of the salt dip blue and getting it reblued using the rust blue method....(by someone who knows what he's doing) Then the trigger, takedown lever and safety catch can be returned to their original straw color as well. The sear bar has been modified in a perculiar way, btw. Probably a P08-style sear that was modified to work with the 1906-style safety catch.

04-02-2009, 10:12 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Even reblued, i think it is worth $900-$1000 (normal reblued luger is worth around $600-$700). I love these guns, although only own one dutch FN right now ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-03-2009, 06:54 AM	#11
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Vlim, Mauser 720, Edward Tinker. Thanks so much for all the knowledge you guys have shared with me. I was wondering how hard these lugars are to pull apart and get back together, is there somewhere that gives step by step instructions so i do this in the right order. I don't want to stuff it up. Vlim, as for the sear bar in your previous comment, i don't know if my father in law did this modification but he always did something to every gun he owned so if it was wrestled off him it couldn't be used on him! He was funny with things like that. Also do you know (or know where to find) what the other letters on the brass plate represent? Thanks P.S I only just figured out how to thank you guys on your posts. Derrrrrrr

04-03-2009, 07:20 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	One of the quickest ways to learn Luger take-down is to google it on "You Tube" there are several step by step films on how to disassemble the Luger

04-03-2009, 08:50 AM	#14
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Chris, thanks for the links, i look forward to checking them out. I am only new to this and i can't believe how much info is on this site. Do you have any more info on the Dutch lugars? I would like to find out more about it. I'm from Australia. I looked at your thread v interesting. Will have to read some of those books.

04-03-2009, 11:42 AM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	If you do a partial disassembly, check the parts for the presence of a GS marking. Many parts that were made locally in Indonesia by the Dutch army maintenance crew were marked with this 'GS' (for GeweermakersSchool) marking. Since the grip on the right is coarser than the one on the left, I suspect it will have a GS marking on the inside. Attached is a photo of the sear bar on my Dutch KNIL luger with the D GS inscription. Forgot to mention that the Dutch magazines come in several guises, normally completely unmarked: -Nickle tube with wooden bottom and small retaining spring to keep the bottom piece in place. -Nickle tube with wooden bottom and no retaining spring. -Blued tube with wooden bottom and no retaining spring. -Blued Haenel-Schmeisser marked tube with alu bottom. Attached Thumbnails

04-04-2009, 12:09 AM	#17
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Chris chris, i was wondering how you got on registering your lugar for shooting. I, like you did,only have visiting rights. Mine is with a mates dad who has a dealer lic, as i only have longarms lic. My mates dad seemed to think that it would be illigel as the barrel was too short. I am just applying for collector lic (for somthing else) and a h lic for the lugar. I would love to know how you got on up there getting all your stuff sorted out. And if you have any advice for me. thanks

04-06-2009, 08:51 AM	#19
navaraute User Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 6 Thanks: 13 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Chris, you are quite right about my spelling of LugEr. I will have to watch that. I was looking at the regs for nsw and the barrel has to be 100mm here as far as i can understand. But wheredo you mesure it from. Is it from the end of the barrel to where the round is chambered? I have got the paperwork for my C & H addition to my lic. Have to plow my way through it now! BTW looked up your signiture, 362nd infantry of usa, i totally agree.