Want to dermine value

valjeanvw · 08-09-2008, 05:41 PM

I think I messed up posting these pics. All new to me. Sorry!
Anyway, I inherited a Luger which was brought back from Germany after WWII and would appreciate anyone helping me with determining an approximate value to ask should I try to sell it.
The toggle inscription is DWM and has no chamber inscription. The toggle knob is round and knurled.
There is no grip safety and it does have a stock lug.
It is 7.65 mm with checkered walnut grips.
The thumb safety is "safe in rear" with "Geisichert".
Markings are as follows:
DWM on top of toggle
proof mark #28 (crown over N) located on barrel and receiver
serial # 8539 with n suffix on barrel and frame
Barrel length is 3-3/4"
Markings on left edge of extractor are proof mark #28 (crown over N)
Front milled sight and rear fixed
Magazine bottom plug material is wood, stamped "Germany" no serial #.
% remaining bluing is approx. 90% (best guess)
% remaining straw is approx. 95% (diddo)
Bore condition is excellent and grip condition is very good
Serial numbers all match except side plate
No accessories except a holster that I doubt is period or authentic.
I believe it to be a commercial model from the 1920's but again, not sure.

Mauser720 · 08-09-2008, 07:42 PM

Valjeanvw -

Suggestion: Please post pictures of the holster too, and indicate what markings it may have. If it is authentic, this will affect the value considerably too.

Mauser720 - Ron

Edward Tinker · 08-09-2008, 07:44 PM

I sold one like it that was all matching for $1000 and then another one that was about mint for $1200

Generally these commericial lugers in 7.65mm aren't as collectable as military, but I think $900-$1100 would be a fair guess without seeing it in person and if all matching.

Ed

MFC · 08-10-2008, 12:27 AM

Val,
The suffix is a "p". It was made late 1926 or early 1927. It is classified as a DWM Alphabet commercial... formerly known as a 1920 commercial.
With the mismatched side plate, the value will be affected. My estimate (because of it's great condition and GERMANY stamped mag) would be $600-$750.
Mike C.

Edward Tinker · 08-10-2008, 12:12 PM

Mike, I missed the mismatched sideplate?

I am assuming that it has a different # on the bottom, as it should NOT have a number on the side.

Ed

valjeanvw · 08-10-2008, 04:40 PM

Ed:
The # on the side plate is on the bottom of it. It's 33 rather than the 39 found on other parts. I took another look at the holster and it appears to be something my step-father hand made for it out of leather after the war. It, in no way, looks commercially made.

Lyn Islaub · 08-10-2008, 05:37 PM

Val's mismatched sideplate brings to mind a question I've had about a 1923 alphabet Luger in my collection. It too has a mismatched sideplate, by just 2 didgets, but mismatched nevertheless. I am able to trace the history of this particular Luger back to the late 1930's and none of the owners since that time had any work done on the pistol. That being the case, what are the odds that the sideplate was mismatched during production? I've heard stories that during the Weimar era, the Germans were financially desperate would go to any length to generate revenue and that new production pistols with mismatched parts were a distinct possibility. Does that possibility hold any water with the membership. I ask, because Val's Luger, like mine, looks completely original with the exception of the mismatched sideplates.
Thx for your thoughts on this.
Lyn

Dwight Gruber · 08-11-2008, 03:38 AM

Lyn,

From a collector standpoint, I am unsatisfied with this kind of arduous speculation to explain the phenomenon. It goes against what we understand to be correct, and does not provide support to believe otherwise. Such a gun will always be mismatched, and no amount of wishful speculation will make it otherwise when it comes down to the dollar.

Too bad, too, because Val's example is so spectulacar in every other wise.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 08-11-2008, 08:36 AM

To be less blunt that our normally staid Dwight; it is hard to believe that it would leave the factory mismatched; as it would be an easy fix to either restamp it or replace it.
The new Mauser book I bought said that Mauser and DWM made 50 million parts over the years (I assume this counts parts made for the 2 million lugers; 69 parts divided into 50 million).

Ed

Mauser720 · 08-11-2008, 09:15 AM

In addition to what Dwight and Ed have posted, (which is certianly true) I think there are examples of Lugers failing to fire because they have the wrong sideplate installed. I guess another way of looking at this question is: How likely is it that a Luger was going to leave the assembly line with a condition that might prevent it from even firing? With what we know about the German attention to detail, it does seem extremely unlikely doesn't it?

Mauser720 - Ron

Lyn Islaub · 08-11-2008, 09:55 AM

"Arduous speculation?" Sounds like a pretty sophisticated way to say "stupid question".
Regardless thx Dwight for your thoughts on the matter. I don't disagree with your logic, but thought I would poll the membership for their opinions.
Regards,
Lyn

Edward Tinker · 08-11-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lyn Islaub
"Arduous speculation?" Sounds like a pretty sophisticated way to say "stupid question".

Lyn, I don't think Dwight would ever mean it that way; but next time I see him, I'll make him drink some cheap whiskey instead of the good stuff....

Aaron · 08-11-2008, 12:48 PM

Are you sure the number 39 isn't just a poorly stamped 33? Take a good look at it with a 10X magnifier.

alvin · 08-11-2008, 04:09 PM

According to the books, there were many steps in inspection, stamping, proof firing, disassembling, re-assembling, etc, etc.... IMHO, it's not impossible that a few guns could leave factories in "mismatched" mode because of human error (even for German). However, if I am paying $$, I will be conservative. After all, plenty of them are full-matching.

Dwight Gruber · 08-11-2008, 05:15 PM

Lyn,

Not really what I meant at all. Luger collecting is full of "what if?"s... and "how about?"s... They are usually well-meaning, and often lead to fruitful avenues of exploration, even if the result is not supportive of the speculation. Perhaps my excessive precision of wording betrayed a momentary irritability or frustration.

Ed,

If it means I am enjoying your company, I'll gladly drink the cheap stuff...

--Dwight

valjeanvw · 08-11-2008, 05:43 PM

Aaron:
I followed your suggestion and looked again with a 10x jewelers loupe and it's definately a 33. The sideplate looks like a great fit but it is about the only place on the gun with the bluing worn. I suppose that could be from holster wear or being changed out.

08-09-2008, 05:41 PM	#1
valjeanvw New User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Want to dermine value I think I messed up posting these pics. All new to me. Sorry! Anyway, I inherited a Luger which was brought back from Germany after WWII and would appreciate anyone helping me with determining an approximate value to ask should I try to sell it. The toggle inscription is DWM and has no chamber inscription. The toggle knob is round and knurled. There is no grip safety and it does have a stock lug. It is 7.65 mm with checkered walnut grips. The thumb safety is "safe in rear" with "Geisichert". Markings are as follows: DWM on top of toggle proof mark #28 (crown over N) located on barrel and receiver serial # 8539 with n suffix on barrel and frame Barrel length is 3-3/4" Markings on left edge of extractor are proof mark #28 (crown over N) Front milled sight and rear fixed Magazine bottom plug material is wood, stamped "Germany" no serial #. % remaining bluing is approx. 90% (best guess) % remaining straw is approx. 95% (diddo) Bore condition is excellent and grip condition is very good Serial numbers all match except side plate No accessories except a holster that I doubt is period or authentic. I believe it to be a commercial model from the 1920's but again, not sure.

08-09-2008, 07:44 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	I sold one like it that was all matching for $1000 and then another one that was about mint for $1200 Generally these commericial lugers in 7.65mm aren't as collectable as military, but I think $900-$1100 would be a fair guess without seeing it in person and if all matching. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-10-2008, 12:27 AM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Val, The suffix is a "p". It was made late 1926 or early 1927. It is classified as a DWM Alphabet commercial... formerly known as a 1920 commercial. With the mismatched side plate, the value will be affected. My estimate (because of it's great condition and GERMANY stamped mag) would be $600-$750. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

08-11-2008, 08:36 AM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	To be less blunt that our normally staid Dwight; it is hard to believe that it would leave the factory mismatched; as it would be an easy fix to either restamp it or replace it. The new Mauser book I bought said that Mauser and DWM made 50 million parts over the years (I assume this counts parts made for the 2 million lugers; 69 parts divided into 50 million). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-11-2008, 09:15 AM	#10
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	In addition to what Dwight and Ed have posted, (which is certianly true) I think there are examples of Lugers failing to fire because they have the wrong sideplate installed. I guess another way of looking at this question is: How likely is it that a Luger was going to leave the assembly line with a condition that might prevent it from even firing? With what we know about the German attention to detail, it does seem extremely unlikely doesn't it? Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

08-09-2008, 07:42 PM	#2
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Valjeanvw - Suggestion: Please post pictures of the holster too, and indicate what markings it may have. If it is authentic, this will affect the value considerably too. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

08-10-2008, 12:12 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	Mike, I missed the mismatched sideplate? I am assuming that it has a different # on the bottom, as it should NOT have a number on the side. Ed

08-10-2008, 04:40 PM	#6
valjeanvw New User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed: The # on the side plate is on the bottom of it. It's 33 rather than the 39 found on other parts. I took another look at the holster and it appears to be something my step-father hand made for it out of leather after the war. It, in no way, looks commercially made.

08-10-2008, 05:37 PM	#7
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Val's mismatched sideplate brings to mind a question I've had about a 1923 alphabet Luger in my collection. It too has a mismatched sideplate, by just 2 didgets, but mismatched nevertheless. I am able to trace the history of this particular Luger back to the late 1930's and none of the owners since that time had any work done on the pistol. That being the case, what are the odds that the sideplate was mismatched during production? I've heard stories that during the Weimar era, the Germans were financially desperate would go to any length to generate revenue and that new production pistols with mismatched parts were a distinct possibility. Does that possibility hold any water with the membership. I ask, because Val's Luger, like mine, looks completely original with the exception of the mismatched sideplates. Thx for your thoughts on this. Lyn

08-11-2008, 03:38 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Lyn, From a collector standpoint, I am unsatisfied with this kind of arduous speculation to explain the phenomenon. It goes against what we understand to be correct, and does not provide support to believe otherwise. Such a gun will always be mismatched, and no amount of wishful speculation will make it otherwise when it comes down to the dollar. Too bad, too, because Val's example is so spectulacar in every other wise. --Dwight

08-11-2008, 09:55 AM	#11
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	"Arduous speculation?" Sounds like a pretty sophisticated way to say "stupid question". Regardless thx Dwight for your thoughts on the matter. I don't disagree with your logic, but thought I would poll the membership for their opinions. Regards, Lyn

08-11-2008, 12:48 PM	#13
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Are you sure the number 39 isn't just a poorly stamped 33? Take a good look at it with a 10X magnifier.

08-11-2008, 04:09 PM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	According to the books, there were many steps in inspection, stamping, proof firing, disassembling, re-assembling, etc, etc.... IMHO, it's not impossible that a few guns could leave factories in "mismatched" mode because of human error (even for German). However, if I am paying $$, I will be conservative. After all, plenty of them are full-matching.

08-11-2008, 05:15 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Lyn, Not really what I meant at all. Luger collecting is full of "what if?"s... and "how about?"s... They are usually well-meaning, and often lead to fruitful avenues of exploration, even if the result is not supportive of the speculation. Perhaps my excessive precision of wording betrayed a momentary irritability or frustration. Ed, If it means I am enjoying your company, I'll gladly drink the cheap stuff... --Dwight

08-11-2008, 05:43 PM	#16
valjeanvw New User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Aaron: I followed your suggestion and looked again with a 10x jewelers loupe and it's definately a 33. The sideplate looks like a great fit but it is about the only place on the gun with the bluing worn. I suppose that could be from holster wear or being changed out.