Update on project....

davjed · 07-02-2008, 06:50 PM

A few weeks ago I posted about buying a parts assortment (Hope I didn't make a mistake) off of Gunbroker. Talk about a mismash (and mismatch) of parts. Of the six barrels one was .30 and shot out as were 4 of the remaining 9mm barrels. One barrel is in good shape with sharp rifling (#3719a). The lower frame is intact but pitted quite badly on the front and rear straps and the sides. The safety reads "rust" at the upper position. The serial number is pitted but the last three digits are _566. The upper receiver is a double date 1917/1920 crimped at the top front. It's number is 6594. The best toggle assembly is plain and not numbered. I have ordered a coil spring kit from Wolf Springs and all the flat springs are present as well as other small parts. I will need a front sight and part of the safety component. My problem is that the barrel will not screw in all the way and the begins to bind and gall after several turns. It looks like the receiver threads need to be chased. My question is, what is the correct die size to use on them. The appear to be 5/8 x 20 but I want to be sure they are not metric before I go any further. I plan to install the barrel then head space and test fire it. If that goes well I will have it bead blasted and refinished. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated along with the thread size.

Hugh · 07-03-2008, 12:09 AM

Dave,

Luger barrel threads are M18x1.27 BSF. If you want to send the bbl & receiver to me, I will chase the threads for you at no charge other than return postage.
Hugh

Rod WMG · 07-03-2008, 01:34 AM

I know from past experience that Hugh is one good guy. You can't beat that offer!

raygun · 07-03-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugh
Dave,

Luger barrel threads are M18x1.27 BSF. Hugh

Hugh this measurement is a little intriguing ?

M18 x 1.27 is obviously metric which is what I would have expected .
But BSF is British Standard Fine and is Imperial . Would you care to explain a little more , as I'm interested in such things working in the motorcycle industry where I frequently encounter many different thread forms.

davjed · 07-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Thanks for the input guys. This has been a fun project so far and I think once the barrel is taken care of I can pull it off myself. Good info Rick and not boring. Hugh, I will take you up on that offer since you have the expertise and tools. Thanks for the offer. Look for a PM from me soon and I will send you the parts along with return postage. There is a lot of good information here and some good people as well.......

Hugh · 07-03-2008, 12:49 PM

Chris,
I have no idea why DWM decided to go with the BSF standard for their barrel threads. Maybe they already had the tooling?? All I know is that "they is what they is".

The Luger Blueprint Disk has the complete dimensions of the bbl and threads on it.

Hugh · 07-03-2008, 12:53 PM

John, Rick is correct, be very careful when rebarreling a Luger. Without the correct tools you can very easily turn your receiver into a piece of useless junk.

What town in LA are you in? I am in SE Texas in Devers, near Beaumont, so not too far away. I grew up in Mer Rouge, near Monroe.
Hugh

Ron Wood · 07-03-2008, 01:46 PM

I don't know if it is true or not, but I have been told that in the late 1800s-early 1900s, the British had the most standardized thread patterns of that era so many weapons builders and other industries used their specifications. I have heard the British thread pattern is also called a "Whitworth" thread or something like that. The Luger grip screws are also British and not metric.

Dwight Gruber · 07-03-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
I don't know if it is true or not, but I have been told that in the late 1800s-early 1900s, the British had the most standardized thread patterns of that era so many weapons builders and other industries used their specifications...The Luger grip screws are also British and not metric.

Interesting. Remember, that the pre-P08 barrel caliber stamps were in the British "guage" system.

Quote:

I have heard the British thread pattern is also called a "Whitworth" thread or something like that.

Ah, yes, hearkens back to my Triumph motorcycle days...

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 07-08-2008, 10:27 AM

Chris, I have heard the same as Ron, that DWM purchased their barrel theading machinery from the British. TH

John Sabato · 07-08-2008, 11:20 AM

Thanks for the referral Hugh!

Want to know the whole story on what the threads look like?

Order my CD of the Luger Blueprints... see the For Sale forum for details or send me a PM.

You will spend HOURS studying these prints... the engineering is amazing.

(Yes, another shameless promotion of the Blueprint CD!

)

Vlim · 07-08-2008, 12:47 PM

Well, DWM buying anything british can be forgotton.

DWM was part of Loewe and Loewe laid the foundations for standardization in Germany, eventually leading to the now-famous DIN standards.

Loewe was inspired by American engineering and probably just reverted to the standards in use in the USA, which were basically British standards.

Ron Wood · 07-08-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Well, DWM buying anything british can be forgotton...Loewe was inspired by American engineering and probably just reverted to the standards in use in the USA, which were basically British standards.

Based upon the initial design of our favorite handgun, I would submit that DWM was well immersed in the British standards long before the USA market was considered. Why would DWM have any concern with the "standards in use in the USA, which were basically British standards" when the prototype development of the Luger and primary market for the Pistole Parabellem was Europe? The Loewe conglomerate and its board of directors had representation in Vickers and the Bank of England well in advance of Luger production. Please help me to understand if I am ill-informed and that the machining of the barrel threads were the result of the influence of the USA.

John Sabato · 07-08-2008, 02:48 PM

Gerben, what, if any evidence (perhaps photos) have you gathered during your study of early DWM history, that might indicate the manufacturer of the major machine tools (lathes, milling machines, etc.) used by DWM during Luger production?

Vlim · 07-08-2008, 04:11 PM

Hi John,

Mostly Loewe machines, many machines they have built themselves as DWM and Loewe also branched out into machine tooling needed for the manufacture of arms and ammunition.

A very good description of tools, machines and methods is described in 'Moderne Gewehrfabrikation', published in 1913 (yet another shameless plug)

Michael Zeleny · 07-09-2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Wood
I don't know if it is true or not, but I have been told that in the late 1800s-early 1900s, the British had the most standardized thread patterns of that era so many weapons builders and other industries used their specifications. I have heard the British thread pattern is also called a "Whitworth" thread or something like that.

Yea on the former, not quite on the latter,

Ron Wood · 07-09-2008, 11:13 AM

"The British Standard Whitworth (BSW), British Standard Fine (BSF), British Standard Parallel Pipe (BSPP), and British Standard Tapered Pipe (BSTP) are all thread series based on the Whitworth screw thread form."

Close enough!

Thanks for the neat link!

davjed · 07-10-2008, 04:38 PM

Well it ain't purty but it's almost a Luger (or should I say several Lugers) again. Except for the front sight, a safety lever, a coupling pin and a magazine release spring, all I need is to install and headspace the barrel. I was going to send it to someone this week to do that for me but another board member requested a swap of the rear toggle so I am going to accommodate him. I got a Wolf service pack for the coil springs and the grips from Numrich. The grips will need to be fitted better.....they were made in India. When all is finished I will bead blast and reblue it. No collector value to it...just a fun project and shooter.

07-02-2008, 06:50 PM	#1
davjed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Update on project.... A few weeks ago I posted about buying a parts assortment (Hope I didn't make a mistake) off of Gunbroker. Talk about a mismash (and mismatch) of parts. Of the six barrels one was .30 and shot out as were 4 of the remaining 9mm barrels. One barrel is in good shape with sharp rifling (#3719a). The lower frame is intact but pitted quite badly on the front and rear straps and the sides. The safety reads "rust" at the upper position. The serial number is pitted but the last three digits are _566. The upper receiver is a double date 1917/1920 crimped at the top front. It's number is 6594. The best toggle assembly is plain and not numbered. I have ordered a coil spring kit from Wolf Springs and all the flat springs are present as well as other small parts. I will need a front sight and part of the safety component. My problem is that the barrel will not screw in all the way and the begins to bind and gall after several turns. It looks like the receiver threads need to be chased. My question is, what is the correct die size to use on them. The appear to be 5/8 x 20 but I want to be sure they are not metric before I go any further. I plan to install the barrel then head space and test fire it. If that goes well I will have it bead blasted and refinished. Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated along with the thread size.

07-03-2008, 12:09 AM	#2
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Dave, Luger barrel threads are M18x1.27 BSF. If you want to send the bbl & receiver to me, I will chase the threads for you at no charge other than return postage. Hugh __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-03-2008, 12:49 PM	#6
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	Chris, I have no idea why DWM decided to go with the BSF standard for their barrel threads. Maybe they already had the tooling?? All I know is that "they is what they is". The Luger Blueprint Disk has the complete dimensions of the bbl and threads on it. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-03-2008, 12:53 PM	#7
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 166 Times in 65 Posts	John, Rick is correct, be very careful when rebarreling a Luger. Without the correct tools you can very easily turn your receiver into a piece of useless junk. What town in LA are you in? I am in SE Texas in Devers, near Beaumont, so not too far away. I grew up in Mer Rouge, near Monroe. Hugh __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-03-2008, 01:46 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	I don't know if it is true or not, but I have been told that in the late 1800s-early 1900s, the British had the most standardized thread patterns of that era so many weapons builders and other industries used their specifications. I have heard the British thread pattern is also called a "Whitworth" thread or something like that. The Luger grip screws are also British and not metric. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-03-2008, 01:34 AM	#3
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know from past experience that Hugh is one good guy. You can't beat that offer!

07-03-2008, 10:40 AM	#5
davjed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the input guys. This has been a fun project so far and I think once the barrel is taken care of I can pull it off myself. Good info Rick and not boring. Hugh, I will take you up on that offer since you have the expertise and tools. Thanks for the offer. Look for a PM from me soon and I will send you the parts along with return postage. There is a lot of good information here and some good people as well.......

07-08-2008, 10:27 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Chris, I have heard the same as Ron, that DWM purchased their barrel theading machinery from the British. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-08-2008, 11:20 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks for the referral Hugh! Want to know the whole story on what the threads look like? Order my CD of the Luger Blueprints... see the For Sale forum for details or send me a PM. You will spend HOURS studying these prints... the engineering is amazing. (Yes, another shameless promotion of the Blueprint CD! ) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-08-2008, 12:47 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, DWM buying anything british can be forgotton. DWM was part of Loewe and Loewe laid the foundations for standardization in Germany, eventually leading to the now-famous DIN standards. Loewe was inspired by American engineering and probably just reverted to the standards in use in the USA, which were basically British standards.

07-08-2008, 02:48 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Gerben, what, if any evidence (perhaps photos) have you gathered during your study of early DWM history, that might indicate the manufacturer of the major machine tools (lathes, milling machines, etc.) used by DWM during Luger production? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-08-2008, 04:11 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi John, Mostly Loewe machines, many machines they have built themselves as DWM and Loewe also branched out into machine tooling needed for the manufacture of arms and ammunition. A very good description of tools, machines and methods is described in 'Moderne Gewehrfabrikation', published in 1913 (yet another shameless plug)

07-09-2008, 11:13 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	"The British Standard Whitworth (BSW), British Standard Fine (BSF), British Standard Parallel Pipe (BSPP), and British Standard Tapered Pipe (BSTP) are all thread series based on the Whitworth screw thread form." Close enough! Thanks for the neat link! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-10-2008, 04:38 PM	#18
davjed User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Central Louisiana Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Update....... Well it ain't purty but it's almost a Luger (or should I say several Lugers) again. Except for the front sight, a safety lever, a coupling pin and a magazine release spring, all I need is to install and headspace the barrel. I was going to send it to someone this week to do that for me but another board member requested a swap of the rear toggle so I am going to accommodate him. I got a Wolf service pack for the coil springs and the grips from Numrich. The grips will need to be fitted better.....they were made in India. When all is finished I will bead blast and reblue it. No collector value to it...just a fun project and shooter.