mark/proof app sequence?

[alvin]

After reading "PROOF AND INSPECTORS MARKS, 1911" on page 134 of Luger Story, I am a little confused on the mark/proof application sequence.

According to the description, four symbols on the right side of the receiver, from left to right:

1) Left letter -- Checked after dismentaling. Principal inspector's mark;
2) Center letter -- Final assembly checked by a government inspector;
3) Right letter -- Accuracy checked;
4) Proof Eagle

It's not clearly stated in the book the appropriate mark/proof application sequence being

2, 1, 4, 3, or
1, 2, 4, 3, or

Or, my understanding of the text could be wrong, were they applied in some other sequence? Thanks for the help!

=====

Was the center letter applied before or after the left letter?

[Dwight Gruber]

Alvin,

Imperial DWM and Erfurt Lugers 1912-1918 were stamped with three inspection stamps and one proof eagle on the right receier, in accordance with the Army marking instructions of 1910 (amended through 1914).

The leftmost stamp was applied first, certifying hardness of the receiver and stamping of the date stamp.

The second-from-left stamp was applied second, certifying the pistol's assembly and its readiness for power proofing and shooting-in.

The pistol was then power-proofed, and the rightmost proof eagle was applied, certifying proof. The barrel and breechblock were stamped with the proof eagle at this time, also.

The last stamp, between the assembly stamp and power proof, was applied last, certifying Army acceptance of the firearm.



DWM First Issue P-08 were stamped on the left receiver with two inspection stamps and a proof eagle. 1910-1912 DWM, Erfurt P-08 1911-1912, and WWII Mauser P-08 were stamped with two inspection stamps and proof eagle. Though it is by no means certain, these probably certified assembly and acceptance, leaving out the receiver hardening/date certification. Imperial Navy Lugers were stamped similarly, with two crown/M inspection stamps and a crown power proof on the left receiver.

Simson Lugers were stamped with the full suite of four stamps, following the 1910 marking instructions.

--Dwight

DWM Imperial Navy Lugers w

[LU1900]

..........

[USKEW]

I would love to get some input about what some of you may feel my luger might would be worth. Of course it is priceless to me and would never sell it, but would be interested to see what some might think. Below are some details about the gun and I am going to try and attach some pics of the firearm.

Luger Identification Form


1. Toggle Inscription: DWM
2. Chamber Inscription: 1915 with Nazi Death Head
3. Toggle Knob Type: Round and Knurled
4. Grip Safety: No Grip Safety
5. Stock Lug: Present
6. Caliber: 9mm
7. Grip Type: Not sure, I think Walnutâ?¦Checkered, with out a border, with out an Insignia
8. Thumb Safety: When pulled back, the word â??Gesichertâ?� appears, when pushed forward, safety covers up that word.
9. Markings on the pistol:
I am going to move from the barrel back on this. On the barrel, the pistol contains a marking on the underside that is proof marking #28. Under the proof marking is the number 88 7/7.
On the top of the chamber, the gun is stamped 1915 and between the date and the barrel is mark number #68, the Nazi Death Head.
On the right side of the â??chamberâ?� is proof #15, but instead of having a bird on the end of it, it has proof#4 on the end of it.
The right side of the breech lock mechanism has proof #4 on it twice. On the left side of the breech lock mechanism near the front it has proof #14. The top of the breech lock, or toggle has the DWM.
The inside of the frame for the grip, under the trigger guard has the numbersâ?¦127.R.5.8
The clip has one of the proofs #46 on the bottom of it with the numbers 655 below the proof mark.
10. Barrel Length: 4 inches
11. Markings on Left Edge of Extractor: As per above proof #14.
12. Desc. Of Front and Rear Sights: It appears that the front side may be able to be slid right to left and same has an alignment mark on one side of it that is perfectly aligned. The front sight as the number 87 on it, which would match the last two numbers printed on the bottom of the barrel and described above in #9. The rear sight is a fixed v
13. Magazine Bottom Plug Material and Marking: I would assume the bottom plug material for the clip is aluminum, at least it is silver in color. As described above in #9, the bottom of the plug has one of the eagles shown in proof #46 with the numbers 655 below it.

Description of the condition: It would appear to me that the firearm contains 85 to 90% of the original bluing. Of the bluing that is missing, there is zero rust on the gun. The strawing on the gun has probably been reduced to 50% on the trigger, 15% on the disassembly latch and maybe 25% on the safety lever. The strawing on the right side of the clip release is at 75 to 80% and the strawing on the right side of the chamber is at 99%. The bore appears to be at 75% or more with no apparent rust and I can not see hardly any pitting to the same. The grips are in excellent condition and I would put the grips at 95%. All of the serial numbers match on the gun with the exclusion of the barrel and the clip. The serial number is 7746.
The gun was given to my when my grandfather passed and he served on the front lines during WWII in the Army, for I believe over 3 years. He told me that a German citizen warned him that a German SS Officer was waiting around the corner for him and my grandfather was able to get the drop on the SS officer and killed him. He took this side arm from the SS officer. The officer was carrying a leather briefcase with papers and my grandfather turned the papers over to intelligence and kept the briefcase. He then traded a German citizen a carton of Marlboro cigarettes and the German made him a leather holster for the gun out of the briefcase and burned his initials in the flap. I still have the original rounds that were in the clip when he returned from the war with the souvenir weapon.
I would love to be able to e-mail pics of the gun for review.

[USKEW]

It would only let me add one pic. Here's another...

[USKEW]

And one more pic.... thanks,

Kevin.

[Dwight Gruber]

Kevin,

Your report is very thorough, but prompts as many questions as it answers. The crown/N proofs indicate this gun was "commercialized" after WWI; the notch in the front of the receiver indicates this was originally an Artillery LP-08 and has been rebarrelled.

If possible, please take good, sharp, close-up pictures of all the markings on this Luger; it will help in answering questions about it.

The death's head requires further consideration.

--Dwight

[USKEW]

Thanks for the response Dwight...photo's to follow shortly.

[alvin]

The receiver has an artillery-like cut. Is that normal on a DWM 4" pistol?

[USKEW]

more pics

[USKEW]

N with crown, this one is horizontal on the "breech guard" the one on the bottom of the barrel is verticle.

[USKEW]

unit markings on the grip

[USKEW]

unit markings on grip

[USKEW]

on the left side top of the breech

[USKEW]

can't get a good pic of this one...it's the bottom of the barrel, N with crown placed vertically with 88 7/7 below it. I know the barrel doesn't match the gun and assume it was reworked prior to WWII.

I appreciate the feedback...heck I just enjoy sharing pics of my gun and hearing some comments.

Kevin

[USKEW]

DWM

[Dwight Gruber]

Alvin,

The chamber cut on a standard-barrelled DWM indicates that the gun was originally an Artillery, and has been rebarrelled. The chamber cut was mandated on Erfurt P-08 after 1916, which oddly enough only made LP-08s in 1914.

Ken,

Thanks for the addtional pictures. The c/N proofs were applied by a state proof house, probably in Suhl or Zella-Mehlis, when the gun was re-proofed because the barrel was replaced. The photo of the under-barrel marks are too indistinct to make out, are you sure the number is not 8,87 ?

The death's head mark, and any purported connection with the SS, is controversial and not firmly established--there are competing theories. Oral history capture reports are notoriously unreliable; if your Grandfather's story could be verified it would be very useful. You will probably find some material if you do a Forum search on "Death's Head" and "Totenkopf". You may find more in-depth discussion on this topic at Jan Still's Luger Forum, http://luger.gunboards.com.

--Dwight

[USKEW]

Dwight:

Thanks for the comments....loving this web site. I'm sorry but grand dad has passed and I only know what he told me, which has been posted. (I also have some Nazi banners that he pulled off of buildings and shipped back to himself). Any idea on value? What would you give for it? Not that I'd ever sell it. I have a son yet to still pass it down do, and him pass down, etc...etc...

[USKEW]

Anyone:

Also....would anyone out there having any second thoughts on firing this weapon? I see nothing wrong with it. Last time I remember it being fired was when my Grandpa fired it when I was about 13. I'm 36 now.

Kevin

[StarOfTheWest]

Very nice and interesting gun, USKEW, thanks for sharing the pics.
The history in your own family makes it even more precious.

I have heard that the death's head was also a symbol of the Prussian Hussars, from WW1, and their emblem very much resembles yours, much more so than the SS skull.
http://forum.axishistory.com/files/prussian_skull_2.jpg
But some have also shown up on WW2 guns.
The way the guns were recycled and put back into service over there, this isn't surprising really.

I would field strip it it and clean it thoroughly, and then maybe have it checked by a gunsmith, although if your Grandfather fired it 23 years ago, and it has sat ever since, I doubt it is unsafe.
But, ya never know.
They like oil and red grease when they are being fired.
They also seem to be a bit prissy about mags and ammo.
I have had good luck with modern after market MecGar mags, and Winchester white box ammo.
There is always a risk of breaking an elderly part though, and extractors, firing pins and ejectors seem to be the ones that become brittle with age and sometimes fail.

I really like your gun, and thanks again for the nice presentation.