Captured War Trophies

[weasel_master]

My girlfriend's brother was talking with a lady while he was getting his hair cut. Somehow they got on the subject of guns and how much I am into them. She said she had a couple of pistols her father in law brought back from the war. I got ahold of her and picked up the pistols today. I'm just trying to get some info for her and an idea of worth. I don't think she's looking to sell them, just curious about them. Here's some pictures.

[weasel_master]

Sorry the pics are so big but I wanted the detail to stand out. Anyone have any info or idea of value on these?

[Edward Tinker]

The 2nd one is a FN 925 acp probably)? and a guess is worth $175-$250, the 1st one is a DWM, I can look it up, but they are not that common...

The first one is an exact copy of the 1910 Belgian Browning, probably made in the 1920's, it is 32 ACP (7.65mm). I am unsure of the value, but this one looks like it is in excellent condition. Please convince her to sell it to me


Ed

[the gunman]

" Seems like what you forgot about guns I'll never learn " And I've been at it 50+ years

[Ron Wood]

Tac has nailed down very well the DWM description. It is not frequently encountered and if the lady does decide to sell, I am seriously interested.
Thanks,
Ron

[davidkachel]

Tac cheated. He had it all written on his sleeve! <grin>

[weasel_master]

What do you guess the value to be? I don't think she is interested in selling them at all. If so, I would seriously consider picking them up. What would a fair price be for both parties if she did decide to sell?

[Edward Tinker]

I am unsure of the value of the DWM; I went to Simpson's, gunbroker, Houston guns, Adams, and Joe Salter, and did not find another. I have seen these come up on the forums before, it is just not that common.


Ed

[Ron Wood]

It isn't so much what Tac has on his sleeve...it is what is up his sleeve you need to worry about...

[Ron Smith]

The FN is in the $200-$250 range tops. I saw a DWM sell for $600-$700 if I recall correctly.

[minigun]

That DWM is cool!

According to the book "German Pistols and Revolvers 1871-1945" by Ian V. Hogg; DWM (Deutsche Waffenund Munitionsfabrik), "instead of employing a designer to come up with something completely novel, DWM took the easy way out and produced an exact copy of the 1910 Belgian Browning".

The book also states this gun has a sort of different way of disassembly. So, once you did get it you'd want to learn how to get it disassembled correctly.

What ink stamps or stamps might the holster have? For ink stamps you'd have to look under the flap of the holster.

[weasel_master]

One holster says PPK on the inside under the flap, the other says 0.75 if I remember right.

[Vlim]

Considering the fact that DWM owned more than half of FN until 1918 and that they delivered most production tooling to FN I think they felt they had every right to rip off the 1910 Browning design, certainly when they lost their share in FN after 1918.

[the gunman]

I can't beleive Ian V. Hogg got anything right. I real A(*^&$#^% who stole everyones info and got most of that wrong.

[Edward Tinker]

I use Ian's books to get a "general" idea of the gun, then research some more...

[Imperial Arms]

Originally posted by tacfoley
The DWM pistol is a Model 23 in 7.65mm/32ACP. It is a good qualtiy version/near copy of the Browning [FN] Modelle 1910, and appears to be in overall good condition.

Immediately after WW1 DWM were prohibited from producing any more Parabellum pistols of the P.08 type by the Versailles Treaty - probably why there are no P.08 with the 1919 date. DWM looked around for a suitably un-military handgun to make, and settled on this one. They changed the grips, altered the operation of the magazine catch, and put it into production as the Model 22 - it went on sale in 1921.

The orginal model had wooden grip plates, but the later version that came along in 1922 had black plastic-like grips, and the pistol became the Model 23. There is only one marking on the pistol - the DWM logo on the left-hand side of the slide. It was in production until the end of 1928, and around 50,000 were made and sold. By then Fabrique Nationale in Belgium had threatened DWM with legal action for infringement of patents and copyright, in spite of the fact that the 1910 patent was due to exprie

This is a fine pistol, and could reasonably have been carried by a staff officer of any arm of service.

tac

Tacfoley is mainly correct with his explanation regarding the DWM M1922/23 pistol. I would like to add that in the early 1900's, Ludwig Loewe, owner of the DWM factory, acquired about a 20% stake in the FN factory and these ownership rights were used by the DWM factory after WWI to produce a pistol outside of Germany in order to bypass the restrictions of the Versailles Treaty. This is a reason why the pistol has no other markings except for the DWM logo.

As a result of limited knowledge that existed about this pistol, which probably caused a lack of interest from many collectors, it was often overlooked, however, it seems that the this pistol is starting to get the attention of some collectors who have an interest with the DWM factory. Maybe it is just the DWM logo on a different pistol that will cause this pistol to bounce up in price!

In my opinion, the value of this pistol is about $1,000. Some collectors will prefer the early model with the wooden grips and other collectors will prefer the later model with the black grips having the large DWM marking. We will have to see what happens in the future regarding its value, but I like this model pistol and its links to the DWM factory. It was probably cheaper and simpler to make than compared to a Luger pistol and I wonder why DWM did not explore this opportunity earlier?

Albert

[minigun]

Wow! I didn't know he was dead and I didn't know he had such an un-popular following. I have two books by him. The "German Pistols and Revolvers" seems like a good book with good info. The other one is a thin book with a little better pics in it (color).

I saw him explain an MP40 and some others on the History Channel's Tales of the Guns (I think it was the German firearms show). He looked pretty aged there. But seemed to know what he was talking about.

These are the only experiences I have with him.

[Dwight Gruber]

One of the DWMs changed hands a couple of times here in Portland about two years ago, it went from $500 to $700 in a matter of weeks. The only one I've ever seen up close and personal (and I wasn't in the sale chain..)

--Dwight

[Vlim]

FN issued 8000 shares, 6000 preference shares and 2000 ordinary shares.
By 1896, when DWM was formed, Loewe transferred the ownership of 5850 shares to DWM. This seems to indicate that Loewe/DWM did not own 20% of FN shares, but more than 73% of the shares.

On the 12th of March, 1919, the DWM owned shares were transferred to the Union Financiere et Industrielle Liegeoise (UFI). So technically speaking DWM's ownership of and influence on a large part of FN ended on that day in 1919.

But the unofficial links between the companies (DWM, Mauser, Vickers and FN) remained and history shows that these companies not only found themselves in court over patent disputes (like Vickers and DWM or Mauser and FN, etc..), but also in close cooperation.

Vickers assembled a number of Dutch KNIL revolvers, the quality was so bad that FN stepped in and reworked them.
DWM produced the Maxim machinegun under license from Vickers.
FN produced the Mauser M89 under license from Mauser.
Vickers assembled a batch of Dutch KNIL lugers.
The Loewe brothers were on the boards of DWM, Mauser, Vickers and FN.
Albert Vickers even had a seat on the board of Loewe.

So from history's point of view it's best to look at these companies as one large family. Not fierce competitors.

[Dwight Gruber]

PM sent

--Dwight