Help 1916 Navy Luger

vesuvio · 12-19-2007, 08:01 PM

Edward Tinker · 12-19-2007, 08:03 PM

pictures, serial number, other information?

Ed

vesuvio · 12-19-2007, 08:40 PM

Sorry ED, problems with uploading pictures.

Mauser720 · 12-19-2007, 10:48 PM

Well, your first four pictures are not viewable; however, the last seven are viewable.

Mauser720 - Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 12-19-2007, 11:10 PM

I would bet this is a reblued pistol. The front grip strap sure looks like it. The trigger or the mag release both look blued not strawed.
The holster is a CMR repro. The straw on the takedown lever looks sparkling new. Sorry not much to say positive...I would check this one out carefully.
Jerry Burney

Big Norm · 12-20-2007, 03:36 AM

You don't have to be the expert that Jerry Burney is to see that the holster is new.

The serial number and the proof mark on the barrel are awfully shallow. That suggests that the barrel has possibly been reworked.

The picture that high lights the mag shows that maybe the front strap on the gun has been polished.

Can't say much about the take down lever except that it looks like it might have a flat top surface. The serial number looks good. Thats all good, but not good enough.

I hate it when the important marking are whitened. It looks nice but it could hide a bunch of important things like the halo around certain markings.

I don't want to comment on the strawing or markings on the left side of the gun. Not enough pictures and the camera lighting could hide the true color of the strawing and the authenticity of the markings.

We need more pictures of the left side of the gun to see the markings, side plate, take down lever and so forth. Basically, the photograghy is nice, but its not the pictures that are needed to judge this navy Luger.
But, just off the cuff, I would guess that this gun is really a navy thats been messed with.

Big Norm

vesuvio · 12-20-2007, 06:30 AM

Thank you, as always your help is appreciated.

Pete Ebbink · 12-20-2007, 11:53 AM

Hello Antonio,

Could you provide photos of the following :

1. C/M proofs along the left side of the receiver flat.

2. Close-up photo of the "1916" date that is stamped on the left side frame rail.

3. The rear toggle pin when the toggle action is pulled back to its rear-most position.

Thank you.

Navy · 12-20-2007, 12:29 PM

The gun has been re-done, but it appears to have been done a long time ago. The magazine proof is not original.

Tom A

Big Norm · 12-20-2007, 11:26 PM

Vesuvio,
both Pete and Tom are correct. But, just for clarification purposes only, Pete's above #3 request is that he wants to see the size of the heads flange on the rear toggle pin. The rear heads flange size on a navy Luger is noticably larger that the heads flange on a P-08. So, if that flange is of the smaller size but still fits the receiver, then the gun hasn't just been messed with, its a counterfeit. If that is so, then you have to get into a whole bunch of other things regarding that rear toggle and its sight. More than likely, if there is a fault, it will be that the rear toggle pin would the P-08 pin and you would see a poor fitting on that flange. Its not uncommon for a Lugers toogle pin to accidentilly drop out some time during its long life time.

As for pictures, I would like to add to Pete's list a little. Maybe the serial number on the extractor, the front and rear grip straps, the serial number on the side plate...Oh Geez, give us all you can get. But don't be surprized if we all agree that this gun has just been messed with a lot. If you want a shooter, then price it accordingly.
Big Norm

vesuvio · 12-21-2007, 05:50 AM

The gun is not in my possession. The pictures were sent to me by the seller in Texas. If anyone is interested, I can forward you his contact info.

Pete Ebbink · 12-21-2007, 01:04 PM

Tom A.,

Following up on your reblue comment :

1. Should we expect to see "halo" around the C/M proof on the barrel (and around the SN, as well) ?

2. Is there anything around the rear sight that indicates a reblue ?

There is a lesson here...in which a reblued gun done many, many years ago will gain its natural patina and oxidation with enough time...

Pete Ebbink · 12-21-2007, 01:10 PM

Antonio,

If the gun is still an honest M1914 Navy Luger...but one just refinished many years ago...you might still consider a purchase.

This assumes your seller will admit it is not factory-original finish and he/she is willing to re-price the piece.

Additional photos from the seller about the areas I pointed out and that Bug Norm also asked for would help you and others determine if this M1914 is really a legit gun (albiet refinished).

With honest Navy Lugers getting up in price (over $ 4500 and more), finding an nice honest one with a Weimar-period refinish may not be a bad thing...especially if you could negotiate a decent price.

You may not want to give up the gun's location and seller info. so quickly...

Navy · 12-21-2007, 04:12 PM

Pete,

I just did a quick survey of an assortment of 6 1906 Navy pistols in my office and on all 6, there was a distinct halo areound the Barrel SN, in only 2 of the 6 was the halp discernable on the barrel C/M and 4 had haloing around frame SN.

As far as the sight in your second picture, there appears to be uneven wear on the inner aspect of the left knob that looks to my old eyes like it has been blued over.

And your comment about patina on old re-finishes is right on the money.

Tom A

Edward Tung · 12-27-2007, 07:33 PM

The seller will not offer a 3 day inspection and some other things he said made me walk away from the deal. He wants $2,900 for the piece.

Pete Ebbink · 12-27-2007, 08:00 PM

What is the name of the seller in Texas...???

Ian Campbell or Don Fischer or another...???

vesuvio · 01-02-2008, 02:52 PM

This gun was sold and pictures posted by the new owner on Wher. com

alvin · 01-12-2008, 06:28 PM

Lots of thinking on market behavior here.

In a market that an honest reblued gun goes to $4, why the seller bother to depict his reblued piece being original and ask $2.9....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=88989144

Big Norm · 01-12-2008, 08:19 PM

Alvin,
good question. The seller has a lot of courage or stupidity (whatever) in offering this gun (on GB) without a reserve price along with the innovative discount offer. But it seems to have worked out for him. (Thats confidence) There's still about an hour left in the bidding. Now it gets a little exciting. I love it when people go crazy in their bidding during the last hour. Just so long as I am not one of the people caught up in the bidding. I think that I'll pour myself an adult beverage, put my feet up on my computer table and think about the hand wrangling thats going on with the bidders right now. Maybe I'll comment on this Luger when the bidding ends.
Big Norm

Navy · 01-12-2008, 08:29 PM

gents,

I know the individual who is selling the piece and who did the restoration. He is an Eastern European, rather recently arrived and is a very competent and honest gunsmith. He is still learning his trade in restoration and understands that honesty is a good thing. He has *great* potential and once he works out a few things from the standpoint of finishing technique, he has the potential to rank along with the Gale Morgans of the world. All it takes is time, talent, discipline, study, time, talent, study, time and talent.

He does great work for what he charges.

Tom A

12-19-2007, 08:01 PM	#1
vesuvio User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 123 Thanks: 1 Thanked 50 Times in 16 Posts	Help 1916 Navy Luger Hello, I have been offered this Navy Luger. The seller says that it is all original with the exception of the Mag. Opinions will be appreciated. http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy3.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy2.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/navy1.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...uvio/Navy9.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...ONA/navy11.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...ONA/navy10.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy8.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy7.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/Navy6.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/Navy5.jpg http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/c...TONA/navy4.jpg

12-19-2007, 08:03 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	pictures, serial number, other information? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-19-2007, 10:48 PM	#4
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Well, your first four pictures are not viewable; however, the last seven are viewable. Mauser720 - Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

12-19-2007, 11:10 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I would bet this is a reblued pistol. The front grip strap sure looks like it. The trigger or the mag release both look blued not strawed. The holster is a CMR repro. The straw on the takedown lever looks sparkling new. Sorry not much to say positive...I would check this one out carefully. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-19-2007, 08:40 PM	#3
vesuvio User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 123 Thanks: 1 Thanked 50 Times in 16 Posts	Sorry ED, problems with uploading pictures.

12-20-2007, 03:36 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	You don't have to be the expert that Jerry Burney is to see that the holster is new. The serial number and the proof mark on the barrel are awfully shallow. That suggests that the barrel has possibly been reworked. The picture that high lights the mag shows that maybe the front strap on the gun has been polished. Can't say much about the take down lever except that it looks like it might have a flat top surface. The serial number looks good. Thats all good, but not good enough. I hate it when the important marking are whitened. It looks nice but it could hide a bunch of important things like the halo around certain markings. I don't want to comment on the strawing or markings on the left side of the gun. Not enough pictures and the camera lighting could hide the true color of the strawing and the authenticity of the markings. We need more pictures of the left side of the gun to see the markings, side plate, take down lever and so forth. Basically, the photograghy is nice, but its not the pictures that are needed to judge this navy Luger. But, just off the cuff, I would guess that this gun is really a navy thats been messed with. Big Norm

12-20-2007, 06:30 AM	#7
vesuvio User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 123 Thanks: 1 Thanked 50 Times in 16 Posts	Thank you, as always your help is appreciated.

12-20-2007, 11:53 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Antonio, Could you provide photos of the following : 1. C/M proofs along the left side of the receiver flat. 2. Close-up photo of the "1916" date that is stamped on the left side frame rail. 3. The rear toggle pin when the toggle action is pulled back to its rear-most position. Thank you.

12-20-2007, 12:29 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	The gun has been re-done, but it appears to have been done a long time ago. The magazine proof is not original. Tom A

12-20-2007, 11:26 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Vesuvio, both Pete and Tom are correct. But, just for clarification purposes only, Pete's above #3 request is that he wants to see the size of the heads flange on the rear toggle pin. The rear heads flange size on a navy Luger is noticably larger that the heads flange on a P-08. So, if that flange is of the smaller size but still fits the receiver, then the gun hasn't just been messed with, its a counterfeit. If that is so, then you have to get into a whole bunch of other things regarding that rear toggle and its sight. More than likely, if there is a fault, it will be that the rear toggle pin would the P-08 pin and you would see a poor fitting on that flange. Its not uncommon for a Lugers toogle pin to accidentilly drop out some time during its long life time. As for pictures, I would like to add to Pete's list a little. Maybe the serial number on the extractor, the front and rear grip straps, the serial number on the side plate...Oh Geez, give us all you can get. But don't be surprized if we all agree that this gun has just been messed with a lot. If you want a shooter, then price it accordingly. Big Norm

12-21-2007, 05:50 AM	#11
vesuvio User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 123 Thanks: 1 Thanked 50 Times in 16 Posts	The gun is not in my possession. The pictures were sent to me by the seller in Texas. If anyone is interested, I can forward you his contact info.

12-21-2007, 01:04 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tom A., Following up on your reblue comment : 1. Should we expect to see "halo" around the C/M proof on the barrel (and around the SN, as well) ? 2. Is there anything around the rear sight that indicates a reblue ? There is a lesson here...in which a reblued gun done many, many years ago will gain its natural patina and oxidation with enough time...

12-21-2007, 01:10 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Antonio, If the gun is still an honest M1914 Navy Luger...but one just refinished many years ago...you might still consider a purchase. This assumes your seller will admit it is not factory-original finish and he/she is willing to re-price the piece. Additional photos from the seller about the areas I pointed out and that Bug Norm also asked for would help you and others determine if this M1914 is really a legit gun (albiet refinished). With honest Navy Lugers getting up in price (over $ 4500 and more), finding an nice honest one with a Weimar-period refinish may not be a bad thing...especially if you could negotiate a decent price. You may not want to give up the gun's location and seller info. so quickly...

12-21-2007, 04:12 PM	#14
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Pete, I just did a quick survey of an assortment of 6 1906 Navy pistols in my office and on all 6, there was a distinct halo areound the Barrel SN, in only 2 of the 6 was the halp discernable on the barrel C/M and 4 had haloing around frame SN. As far as the sight in your second picture, there appears to be uneven wear on the inner aspect of the left knob that looks to my old eyes like it has been blued over. And your comment about patina on old re-finishes is right on the money. Tom A

12-27-2007, 07:33 PM	#15
Edward Tung User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Jose Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The seller will not offer a 3 day inspection and some other things he said made me walk away from the deal. He wants $2,900 for the piece.

12-27-2007, 08:00 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	What is the name of the seller in Texas...??? Ian Campbell or Don Fischer or another...???

01-02-2008, 02:52 PM	#17
vesuvio User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 123 Thanks: 1 Thanked 50 Times in 16 Posts	This gun was sold and pictures posted by the new owner on Wher. com

01-12-2008, 06:28 PM	#18
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Lots of thinking on market behavior here. In a market that an honest reblued gun goes to $4, why the seller bother to depict his reblued piece being original and ask $2.9.... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=88989144

01-12-2008, 08:19 PM	#19
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Alvin, good question. The seller has a lot of courage or stupidity (whatever) in offering this gun (on GB) without a reserve price along with the innovative discount offer. But it seems to have worked out for him. (Thats confidence) There's still about an hour left in the bidding. Now it gets a little exciting. I love it when people go crazy in their bidding during the last hour. Just so long as I am not one of the people caught up in the bidding. I think that I'll pour myself an adult beverage, put my feet up on my computer table and think about the hand wrangling thats going on with the bidders right now. Maybe I'll comment on this Luger when the bidding ends. Big Norm

01-12-2008, 08:29 PM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	gents, I know the individual who is selling the piece and who did the restoration. He is an Eastern European, rather recently arrived and is a very competent and honest gunsmith. He is still learning his trade in restoration and understands that honesty is a good thing. He has great potential and once he works out a few things from the standpoint of finishing technique, he has the potential to rank along with the Gale Morgans of the world. All it takes is time, talent, discipline, study, time, talent, study, time and talent. He does great work for what he charges. Tom A