Luger Tooling Sets

[Dwight Gruber]

In response to a justifiable complaint of an excessively off-topic digression in another discussion, I have moved it to this new thread.

Originally posted by azlaw
So, where are the toolings sets now? Is any set still intact?

Thats a good question. I may not get it entirely right here--I'm sure others will jump in and correct me--but here's the general history.

DWM--this tooling went to Mauser in 1930. Some of it was pretty worn and Mauser made modifications to the production stream, both no doubt necessitating new tooling elements. In 1938 the P-38 was accepted as the "other" standard German service sidearm, and in 1941 German military orders for the P-08 ceased. Some of the machines at Mauser for manufacturing the P-08 were converted to P-38 production.

The French destroyed the Mauser factory works in Oberndorf after WWII. Disposition of the machine tooling is unknown (at least to me), but as a WAG I'd guess it was scrapped.

ERFURT--The Erfurt rifle factory was shut down at the end of WWI. In 1922 Simson Suhl was given the government contract to refurbish P-08, and in 1925 was selected as the exclusive contractor of the P-08 for the Reichswehr. Simson acquired the Erfurt production tooling for these purposes.

In 1933 Simson was seized by the German government and broken up into several smaller arms manufacturing companies. When Krieghoff won the contract to manufacture P-08 for the Luftwaffe, it was offered the tooling from Simson. Krieghoff determined that the tooling was in too poor condition for manufacture, and so used it as patterns to create their own tooling. Disposition of the Erfurt/Simson tool set is unknown.

After WWII the great German arms-making nexus of Suhl and Zella-Mehlis ended up in the East German zone. This included such companies as Krieghoff and C.G. Haenel, which became the factory V.E.B. Ernst Th�¤lmann.

V.E.B. Ernst Th�¤lmann was responsible for reworking P-08 for the East German Volkspolizei, and in 1953 manufactured at least 100 (serial number reports imply more) new Pistole 08, presumably as a test run to determine the practicability of resuming production. It is assumed that at least part of this tooling came from Krieghoff. Its disposition is unknown.

WAFFENFABRIK BERN The original military contract for the Pistole Parabellum was ordered by Switzerland in 1900. DWM supplied Parabellums to the Swiss until the outbreak of the war in 1914. At that time Switzerland created their own tooling in Bern, and manufactured their own Lugers until 1947; in 1949 the Parabellum was replaced as the Swiss service pistol.

In 1965 Waffenfabrik Bern manufactured a prototype Parabellum for a proposed venture with Interarmco in the US to restart commercial Luger manufacture, but the contract was given to Mauser in Germany. Mauser acquired the Bern tooling, but eventually created their own tooling for actual manufacture which began in 1970 and ceased a few years later.

Disposition of both of these tooling sets has not been reported, but somebody at Mauser--Dr. Rolf Gminder, for example--probably knows.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Anyone know what tooling Krieghoff is now making the "new" HK Lugers upon...???...new tooling...???...

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

I asked the question on Jan's Forum, and the belief--without anyone knowing authoritatively--is that they are being made on CNC machines.

Frankly this would make much more sense than resurrecting or making new original-technology tooling.

--Dwight

[azlaw]

All I can say is that, from my brief study of Colt tooling, "old" tooling does not hesitate to be very labor intensive. 100 years ago, labor was very cheap, tools expensive. Now the reverse is true. Using a ca 1910 tooling set to produce a firearm these days would probably be economically impossible.

Am "modern" Luger maker would therefor probably favor CNC and other computerized methods of manufacture.

[Heinz]

Dwight, I think first we have to differentiate what is meant by tooling. This term could encompass:
1) standard machine tools such as milling machines, lathes, slotters, drill presses, planers, etcetera
2) completely custom machine tools for specialized tasks, a rifling machine or horizontal boring machine for barrels for instance
3) specialized jigs and fixtures for adopting a standard machine tool to a special task, examples would be mounting fixtures for aligning and holding the barrel for cutting the sight dovetail, or the taper guides for the lathes cutting the barrel taper.
4) specialized tools such as the tool for installing the recoil spring and the tool for adjusting the front sight.

Using this framework I would suggest that we look at the Krieghoff claim that the Simson "tooling" was worn out. Surely the machine tools would not have been worn out beyond repair. These machinists thought nothing of replacing bearing, guides, chucks and other wearing parts to keep a machine functioning. In my youth I worked on a number of old belt drive "jack shaft" operated tools that had been converted to electric power. Custom machine tool might wear out but it is difficult to imagine they would be beyond repair. Jigs and fixtures wear out rather regularly and are simple replaced. Specialized tools are the same as jigs and fixtures. Either buy or make new ones when they wear out. I suspect Krieghoffs claim that they had to throw everything out and start over was simply a ploy to get paid a premium price for overhauling the Simson machinery. That kind of graft was par for the Third Reich.

When production halts the specialized machine tools, hand tools and jigs and fixtures are store scrapped or modified. Often this kind of tooling reflects the culture of the workplace where it was born. I have a seventy year old drill press in my shop and I love it. A mechanic used to new tools would say he would not waste his time on it. Moving Swiss custom tools, jigs and fixtures to Mauser in the 1960's and 70's could have met with a cultural rejection.

It would be valuable to have a detailed account of the 1960s Mauser production and tooling. It would be informative on the methods necessary.

I would suggest that much of the intrinsic appeal of the early Lugers comes from the human element of craftsmenship inherent in their making. They have a certain soul that a CNC made piece will never have.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Heinz
...I would suggest that much of the intrinsic appeal of the early Lugers comes from the human element of craftsmenship inherent in their making. They have a certain soul that a CNC made piece will never have.

The swirls and markings seen on original lugers shows it was an honest piece, made primarily by hand. That has always appealed to me.

[Alx]

The photos of the new Kriegs look pretty good to me, with the exception of the plastic (proper) grips. But if router swirls on the frame ears for instance were desired, they could be programmed into the CNC as well, even a random or typical move pattern. Have we heard anything more of the 200 new Krieghoff P-08 ?

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Is it possible they are using investment casting like Mauser did, and on the stainless models???

[Johnny C. Kitchens]

Investment casting has proven itself in the firearm usage. I've never seen anyone say anything bad about the latest Mauser Lugers that used it...

[Alx]

These details lifted straight from their website page about the new P08...
They claim the gun is machined from solid steel.

"Background
Between 1934 and 1945, Krieghoff produced
approximately 13,850 Model â??08â?� pistols in their
factory in Suhl, Germany. A small percentage of
these pistols, approximately 1650, were manufactured
as a civilian version of the Parabellum. This
rarer Parabellum contained additional features and
details omitted on the military version. Krieghoff
continues production of this very sought after
collectorâ??s item with the introduction of the 2006
Limited Edition.
Luxury presentation box
Indicator for chambered round
Features
The 2006 Limited Edition â?? authentic Model 08
features include
â?¢ 100% dimensionally identical to the first
Krieghoff
pistols.
â?¢ Machined from the best grade solid steel
â?¢ Stamped with the authentic Krieghoff anchor
insignia on front toggle link
â?¢ Beautiful case colored accents where applicable
â?¢ Nickel plated magazine with aluminized bottom
â?¢ Original interior barrel rifling.
â?¢ Bakelite pistol grip
â?�Krieghoff Anchorâ?? and â?�Krieghoff Suhlâ?? insignia
Technical Specifications
Caliber: 9 mm Parabellum (9x19)
Action: Toggle Lock Action
Overall Length: 220 mm (approx. 8 2/3â?�)
Sight Radius: 194 mm (approx. 7 1/4â?�)
Barrel length: 102 mm (approx. 4â?�)
Weight: 870 grams (1.9lbs)
Magazine Capacity: 8 cartridges
Limited Edition
Only two hundred (200) pieces, serial numbered
18001 to 18200, will be produced - signifying
the continuation of the product line halted over
60 years ago. ........."

[Heinz]

It would be interesting to know exactly what they mean by "Machined from the best grade solid steel" This could mean machined from billet, or it could mean machined from a casting. Cast steel is "solid steel"