WW2 items found in Iraq

[Edward Tinker]

I have heard this off and on, but was in my "Military Newletter" today;

Soldiers Finding WWII Weapons in Iraq
Stars and Stripes | May 25, 2007
BAGHDAD â?? While searching for weapons caches, American soldiers near Abu Ghraib often play the part of accidental archaeologists.
Iraq is a country steeped in history, but the artifacts that soldiers of the 2nd Battalion, 5th Cavalry have periodically stumbled on are not born of the Middle East. Instead, they have migrated from Europe and Asia, remnants of past battlefields that have been pressed into service again.

Rifles etched with the Nazi eagle and swastika, Tommy guns seemingly straight out of black and white gangster movies, and a British Sterling submachine gun familiar to any World War II enthusiast have been found among the weapons troves of insurgents. The weapons, often preserved in their hiding places in motor oil, are discovered in perfect working order, a startling incongruence to their surroundings in Iraq and modern warfare.

â??Most of this stuff should be in a museum and not floating around,â?� said Capt. Rene Diaz, 29, of Puerto Rico. â??You normally can only read about these kinds of weapons.â?�

The unit finds about two to three weapons caches per week, said Capt. Shaun Trinkle. The finds vary in size from a couple of guns with a few hundred rounds to larger caches with dozens of weapons and explosives. Trinkle, a 27-year-old from Fort Hood, Texas, said soldiers typically find a variation of the AK automatic rifle, a weapon common to many Iraqi households.

But on a dozen occasions, the troops have found weapons that date as far back as the 1930s and 40s. The weapons, from places like Russia, Germany and the United Kingdom, are worth tens of thousands of dollars to collectors, Diaz said.

Diaz, a gun enthusiast, spends time pulling apart the rare weapons, studying the sturdy design that has allowed them to continue performing more than a half century after their manufacture.

â??These old weapons were designed to be pounded and punished,â?� he said. â??In World War II they were made simple and easy to use. And here they still are.â?�

Trinkle, another admirer of vintage weapons, said it is anyoneâ??s guess how the guns â?? some worth upwards of $25,000 on the antiquities market â?? could have found their way into dirt holes in the orchards and rutted fields of western Baghdad.

â??Sometimes it amazes me,â?� he said. â??Some of the guns may have been family heirlooms passed down. Some may have been surplus weapons sold by other countries to Iraq. Some may have been floating around on the black market.â?�

The appearance of British weapons has the most plausible explanation, the soldiers said. The guns were likely remainders of the colonial British presence in Iraq during the early part of the 20th century. Iraq achieved independence from the British in the 1930s.

â??The weapons are pretty rugged,â?� Diaz said. â??But a lot of them were destroyed after [World War II] so thatâ??s why theyâ??re collectorâ??s items.â?�

Diaz said he hopes some of the antique guns are displayed at the unitâ??s home base in Fort Hood. The process of clearing the weapons for return to the United States involves a lot of paperwork, he said, but otherwise the guns will be destroyed or turned over to Iraqi authorities.

â??This is real unique stuff that you definitely donâ??t see every day in the United States,â?� Trinkle said. â??Here you just find them buried in the ground.â?�

[Pete Ebbink]

Dig around this "sand trap" of a country long enough and we might find the WMD from the Nazis even...

[azlaw]

I've noticed a number of MP/Stg44s in photos from the region. If memory serves, the Lebanese bought a bunch of these from Interarms or somebody in the 1960s, so perhaps that's where they are coming from. Photos from Africa show a real variety of weapons, including M-14s, Mp38/40s, and weird Italian guns.

H

[Ron Wood]

They even turned up a Borchardt in Iraq.

[Hugh]

But most of them are stuff like this:

[Dwight Gruber]

There is a very interesting video on Youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9xf6...elated&search= about the illegal arms bazaar and gun manufacturers in the Khyber Pass. The documentary is about eight minutes long, the narrator knows nothing about guns, but it is a very interesting look at the Afgan-Pakistani arms trade and weapons manufacturing cottage industry.

In one scene they visit a large gun store which appears to be C&R military heaven, everything from WWI-era military rifles to a Lewis machine gun. Prominently displayed, and dwelt on for bit, are three Artillery model Lugers.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Nice well-worn Swiss revolver in the batch of great photos Hugh posted !!!

This was originally a M1882 Swiss gun...



(Text Added By Pete : Some Swiss board members noted that this one might be a Belgium copy of the Swiss gun. Large spring behind the trigger is most odd and the front sight blade is different. Here is a close up of the proofs...not Swiss at all :

[Lugerdoc]

Hugh, Thanks for the great pistol photos. Any chance of a close up of the marking on the PP copy? This looks like an unknown pistol that was pictured in the lastest AUTOMAG. I wouldn't mind owning one of the Tarqui copies of the M1951 Beretta. TH

[the gunman]

Very interesring video Dwight. You sure are right a collectors dream.

[Hugh]

Tom,

Sorry, but that is the only picture I have. Hugh sent them to me about four weeks ago. I would imagine that the gun has either been returned to its owner, destroyed or otherwise disposed of by now.

[Vlim]

Several screen shots from the Pakistani video.

[Pete Ebbink]

Politics aside and ignoring the fact that fellow might be wearing a Death Head ring of some sort; the look on his face while holding the artillery is not unlike the expression you see many times when a fellow at any gun show picks up a Luger for the first time...

[Edward Tinker]

Pete, it is an interesting video, but he's an idiot, at least when it comes to Artillery's, he is saying out loud durig this part, "here is a nazi gun, pure evil in my hands." Might be more dramatic, but I don't remember any artillerys being made during the nazi era

[Steinar]

Would not be the camera man.. hate beeing in the wrong end of a muzzle. Especially with an 'idiot' like that holding the rifle.
From the screenshot, you can also see two lugers up to the left

[Pete Ebbink]

Ed,

Siam and Persian LP-08's in the early Nazi timeframe...but not issued to the 3rd. Reich...so maybe they are commercial-ones from the WWII timeframe...to be more accurate...

[Dwight Gruber]

Nah. This guy knows nothing about guns. I'm certain his knowledge of Lugers comes entirely from movies--he wouldn't know an Artillery from a Mauser.

--Dwight

[SS109]

9mm Magnum? Must mean Parabellum, but I don't think I would shoot that pistol anyway.