E German DDR Luger

maddog350gt · 03-20-2007, 10:36 PM

Hi all;

I have the story Dwight Gruber eluded to in his note about the Portland Gun show. I found this luger on the table of a dealer who specializes in machine guns and high tech modern military guns. I have no idea why he had a luger other than he probably bought it in a group of Russian capture pieces or took it in a trade for some of his other inventory. At any rate I looked this over and said good shooter at not a bad price for today's market and left it in his care.

Later that day I ran into Dwight Gruber (nice thing about living near Portland), we talked a little about the lugers in the show and Dwight showed me the list he made of what was there. I didn't see the shooter so I asked him if he'd seen it, he said no so we worked our way to the last table on the southwest side of the building (almost out the door at the back of the room). Dwight asked to see the luger and started to inspect it as I was telling him it had some E German proofs on it. Dwight looked at it for a few moments and turned to me and said "You need to buy this gun....Right Now!". That's when it dawned on me that this was one of the 100 or so E German manufactured guns built in the early 50's. I have know idea what the value of this gun is but I am sure it is more than the shooter price I paid for it. Being one of the rarest production runs of luger ever made I view it as a once in a lifetime find.

I have been trying to find out about these guns but not much has been written about them. None of the better known reference books even acknowledges that they exist. The only information I have comes from this Forum, Jan Stills Forum, and what is written in Buxton's P-38 volume III.
Here is what I can tell you about it along with a number of pictures. If you want to see something that I didn't take a picture of let me know and I'll try to get a shot of it and post it.

The gun has what I believe to be an E German manufactured frame and receiver, both serial numbered N1030. The barrel is E German, date coded 653 for June of 1953. The breech block, sear bar, safety plate, and hold open appear to be reworked WWII pieces, all of the rest of the small parts look to be of E German manufacture. I don't know if all of the parts were E German at one time and the gun was then refurbished before being sold as excess or if the WWII parts were part of the original build. At this point it's difficult to tell. The barrel has a stepped chamber (couldn't get a picture of that) and is in excellent condition. The frame has no lanyard loop or stock lug, is not re-enforced and is very roughly finished on the outside. The back of the receiver does not have the Mauser Hump. The sear bar has a hole for the pin of a sear safety and the side plate is milled for the same. It does not appear that the gun ever had a sear safety installed.

If anyone has more information on this series of E German guns I would appreciate if they would post it here or send me a message.

Thanks,
Bob M.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01204.jpg
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Dwight Gruber · 03-21-2007, 12:26 AM

Bob,

Glad you finally told the story, also glad to see the gun again in the pictures. Don't forget the 2/1001 mag.

It was a very great pleasure to have a hand in the discovery of this Luger.

--Dwight

Sieger · 03-21-2007, 03:08 AM

Hi:

Fascinating find!!

Truly a find of a lifetime!!!

Who built this Luger? Krieghoff?

Where did they get the machinery to build it?

Sieger

George Anderson · 03-21-2007, 05:48 AM

Nice find. I saw one change hands this past year for about three grand.

Navy · 03-21-2007, 07:02 AM

I own the one George mentioned. They were, in fact, built on former Krieghoff tooling. There is an article about them in, I believe, DWJ, but I have not been successful in getting a copy. The guns are a testament to the fundamental differences between a socialist and a capitalist system....

Tom A.

Ron Smith · 03-21-2007, 07:26 AM

Hey Bob,

That's a great score. I'm going to have to start going to the Portland shows and hanging out with Dwight. That way I won't have to take any books. It pays to study the books. On the other hand, Dwight is an entire library

Congratulations!

Ron

Lugerdoc · 03-21-2007, 07:56 AM

Bob & Dwight, Great find. I once owned N1031 but sold it to another Forum member. Pistol as you describe, also note the lack of checkering on the top of the toggle knobs. Only about 150 of these made at the Ernst Thaulmann werks in Suhl in 1953, as they were considering going back into production, but due to Russian insistance, decided to produce the Makarov instead. TH

MarkC · 03-21-2007, 08:24 AM

Great Find! These guns are pretty rare.

Here is a link to my example

http://www.p38guns.com/EGLugerRig.htm

The also made P.38's at the same facility at the same time, here is a link to my "N" prefix P.38. The photo of the P.38 is with a set of aftermarket grips. I found a set of EG grips about a year ago.

http://www.p38guns.com/AB9.htm

Mark

maddog350gt · 03-21-2007, 09:48 AM

Hi everyone;

Thanks for the info on the DDR, what information is available on these is very scarce and hard to find. What I know is mostly from here and Jan's forum. I had read in Buxton's book that the program was discontinued due to 'a commitment by the Russian's to provide more modern Russian weapons', I think Tom's interpretation might be closer to the truth.

Dwight, I have pictures of the magazine and will try to post them with this reply. My computer started to freeze up last night while I was uploading the pictures so I stopped and posted what I had rather than risk loosing what I had already uploaded.

Ron, you should come up and "hang out" with Dwight and myself, maybe we can get Russ Witham to show up and we can have a mini forum gathering. There is a show April 20-22, let me know if you plan to come up.

Tom A; any chance you could post some pictures of your DDR? I would love to compare them. On yours, what parts are new manufacture and which ones are leftover WWII parts. I am not sure if mine was all DDR at one point and refurbished or if it started with some leftover parts. There is not enough information on these to truly know at this point. Buxton's notes on the P-38 indicated that some leftover parts were interspersed with the new frames barrels etc.

Thanks,
Bob M.
PS; my computer is still hanging up when I try to upload photos, I am sure it's on my side so I'll try to clean things up and upload the magazine latter.
Bob

Navy · 03-21-2007, 10:40 AM

Bob,

As time permits I will post some of my notorious pix with toes included.

Tom A

Edward Tinker · 03-21-2007, 05:31 PM

Congrats Bob!

Dieter Marshalls book has a small chapter on these. I am out of town (for a long time), but his book has the most information on these rare puppies.

abe books has one of his copies;

WALTHER PISTOLS: MODELS 1 THROUGH P99, FACTORY VARIATIONS & COPIES
Dieter H. Marschall
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...lther%26x%3D85

also on gun show books;
http://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/...05&sid=6J7890s

ed

Navy · 03-22-2007, 01:38 PM

My PC at home came down with Blue Screen of Death so Geeks are coming to fix it this PM. Maybe pix this weekend. My DDR gun is SN 1024 and does not have an import mark.

Tom A

maddog350gt · 03-22-2007, 06:34 PM

Hi all,

Thanks for the information in the latest post, at this point everything helps enlighten me as to what this is and represents. I think it's a fascinating piece, with a lot of history attached.

MarkC your gun is outstanding with the two matching magazines and the holster. Mine came with a magazine thats correct for the gun (2/1001) but it doesn't have any markings on it. I don't know if someone removed the marks that were there or if it was never marked. I lean toward the latter but am open to inputs if I can get the pictures up on the board. I'll try to post the pics tonight, I think I have the computer problem solved.

Tom A, yours is not import marked, that's outstanding. The one I have is as it probably came in with a batch of Eastern block pistols that were sold to the US. With this rare a gun I doubt it matters but it would be nice if it wasn't there. Do you know how your gun made it way to the US? I expect it must have come back with a GI or German tourist in the late 50's or early 60's.

I am still trying to find out if these guns were 100% E German parts or if they used a mixture of WWII small parts. Buxton indicated that the P-38's had mixed small parts from leftover stock but was unclear on the Lugers. Tom and Mark do either of your guns have mixed E German and WWII parts? If so which ones are WWII? Mine has mixed parts as I stated above but I am not sure if it started that way or was referbed before it was shipped to the US. It doesn't look like it got a lot of ware so I am not sure it would have been reworked but I don't really know.

Ed thanks for the link to the Walther book, I ordered one as a reference but it will probably take a couple of week to get here. I was too cheap to spend the extra money for the express shipping.

If I get my home computer working (doing this from work), I'll try to post some other pics tonight. Anyone want a shot of something in particular?

Thanks,
Bob M.

Lugerdoc · 03-23-2007, 09:37 AM

Bob, My former N prefix DDR luger and Mark C's are the same pistol and as I remember, all parts were of new DDR production. TH

Navy · 03-23-2007, 10:55 AM

Mine is N1024, probably made on same shift as yours. It appears that all partsexcept mag are DDR in origin. Will examine mag closely tonight. I have no clue how it got in the country. The holster is one of the soft side pebbled P-38 type configured with a tool pouch in the top. I acquired mine to accompany my Krieghoffs as I strongly believe they were made on Krieghoff tooling.

Tom A

Dwight Gruber · 03-23-2007, 11:56 AM

Tom,

Are the Krieghoff rear frame wells the reinforced style, or not?

--Dwight

maddog350gt · 03-24-2007, 08:32 AM

Tom A and MarkC;

If you get a chance to take some pictures of your DDR Lugers I would appreciate if you could post a shot or two of the Breechblock, sear-bar, and safety bar (numbered part that blocks the sear when the safety is on) especially the proofs and numbers, as these are the parts on mine that look to be of WWII origin. Mine are not numbered to the gun. It could mean that my gun was rebuilt at some time during it's life. Not an unreasonable assumption given that it is 54 years old; yet the gun doesn't look like it has a lot of wear on it or that it was abused.

Thanks,
Bob M.

03-20-2007, 10:36 PM	#1
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	E German DDR Luger Hi all; I have the story Dwight Gruber eluded to in his note about the Portland Gun show. I found this luger on the table of a dealer who specializes in machine guns and high tech modern military guns. I have no idea why he had a luger other than he probably bought it in a group of Russian capture pieces or took it in a trade for some of his other inventory. At any rate I looked this over and said good shooter at not a bad price for today's market and left it in his care. Later that day I ran into Dwight Gruber (nice thing about living near Portland), we talked a little about the lugers in the show and Dwight showed me the list he made of what was there. I didn't see the shooter so I asked him if he'd seen it, he said no so we worked our way to the last table on the southwest side of the building (almost out the door at the back of the room). Dwight asked to see the luger and started to inspect it as I was telling him it had some E German proofs on it. Dwight looked at it for a few moments and turned to me and said "You need to buy this gun....Right Now!". That's when it dawned on me that this was one of the 100 or so E German manufactured guns built in the early 50's. I have know idea what the value of this gun is but I am sure it is more than the shooter price I paid for it. Being one of the rarest production runs of luger ever made I view it as a once in a lifetime find. I have been trying to find out about these guns but not much has been written about them. None of the better known reference books even acknowledges that they exist. The only information I have comes from this Forum, Jan Stills Forum, and what is written in Buxton's P-38 volume III. Here is what I can tell you about it along with a number of pictures. If you want to see something that I didn't take a picture of let me know and I'll try to get a shot of it and post it. The gun has what I believe to be an E German manufactured frame and receiver, both serial numbered N1030. The barrel is E German, date coded 653 for June of 1953. The breech block, sear bar, safety plate, and hold open appear to be reworked WWII pieces, all of the rest of the small parts look to be of E German manufacture. I don't know if all of the parts were E German at one time and the gun was then refurbished before being sold as excess or if the WWII parts were part of the original build. At this point it's difficult to tell. The barrel has a stepped chamber (couldn't get a picture of that) and is in excellent condition. The frame has no lanyard loop or stock lug, is not re-enforced and is very roughly finished on the outside. The back of the receiver does not have the Mauser Hump. The sear bar has a hole for the pin of a sear safety and the side plate is milled for the same. It does not appear that the gun ever had a sear safety installed. If anyone has more information on this series of E German guns I would appreciate if they would post it here or send me a message. Thanks, Bob M. http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01204.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01205.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01206_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01207_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01208.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01209.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01210.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01211.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01212.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01213.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01214_copy2.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01215.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01216.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01217.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01218.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01219.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01220.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01221.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01222.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01223.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01224.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01225_copy1.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01226.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01227.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01228.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01229.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01230.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01231.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01232.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01233.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01234.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01235.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01236.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01237.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dsc01240.jpg Attached Thumbnails

03-21-2007, 03:08 AM	#3
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	DDR Luger Hi: Fascinating find!! Truly a find of a lifetime!!! Who built this Luger? Krieghoff? Where did they get the machinery to build it? Sieger

03-21-2007, 07:26 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hey Bob, That's a great score. I'm going to have to start going to the Portland shows and hanging out with Dwight. That way I won't have to take any books. It pays to study the books. On the other hand, Dwight is an entire library Congratulations! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-21-2007, 07:56 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Bob & Dwight, Great find. I once owned N1031 but sold it to another Forum member. Pistol as you describe, also note the lack of checkering on the top of the toggle knobs. Only about 150 of these made at the Ernst Thaulmann werks in Suhl in 1953, as they were considering going back into production, but due to Russian insistance, decided to produce the Makarov instead. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-23-2007, 09:37 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Bob, My former N prefix DDR luger and Mark C's are the same pistol and as I remember, all parts were of new DDR production. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-21-2007, 12:26 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Bob, Glad you finally told the story, also glad to see the gun again in the pictures. Don't forget the 2/1001 mag. It was a very great pleasure to have a hand in the discovery of this Luger. --Dwight

03-21-2007, 05:48 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Nice find. I saw one change hands this past year for about three grand.

03-21-2007, 07:02 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I own the one George mentioned. They were, in fact, built on former Krieghoff tooling. There is an article about them in, I believe, DWJ, but I have not been successful in getting a copy. The guns are a testament to the fundamental differences between a socialist and a capitalist system.... Tom A.

03-21-2007, 08:24 AM	#8
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 478 Thanks: 1 Thanked 109 Times in 26 Posts	Great Find! These guns are pretty rare. Here is a link to my example http://www.p38guns.com/EGLugerRig.htm The also made P.38's at the same facility at the same time, here is a link to my "N" prefix P.38. The photo of the P.38 is with a set of aftermarket grips. I found a set of EG grips about a year ago. http://www.p38guns.com/AB9.htm Mark

03-21-2007, 09:48 AM	#9
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi everyone; Thanks for the info on the DDR, what information is available on these is very scarce and hard to find. What I know is mostly from here and Jan's forum. I had read in Buxton's book that the program was discontinued due to 'a commitment by the Russian's to provide more modern Russian weapons', I think Tom's interpretation might be closer to the truth. Dwight, I have pictures of the magazine and will try to post them with this reply. My computer started to freeze up last night while I was uploading the pictures so I stopped and posted what I had rather than risk loosing what I had already uploaded. Ron, you should come up and "hang out" with Dwight and myself, maybe we can get Russ Witham to show up and we can have a mini forum gathering. There is a show April 20-22, let me know if you plan to come up. Tom A; any chance you could post some pictures of your DDR? I would love to compare them. On yours, what parts are new manufacture and which ones are leftover WWII parts. I am not sure if mine was all DDR at one point and refurbished or if it started with some leftover parts. There is not enough information on these to truly know at this point. Buxton's notes on the P-38 indicated that some leftover parts were interspersed with the new frames barrels etc. Thanks, Bob M. PS; my computer is still hanging up when I try to upload photos, I am sure it's on my side so I'll try to clean things up and upload the magazine latter. Bob

03-21-2007, 10:40 AM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Bob, As time permits I will post some of my notorious pix with toes included. Tom A

03-21-2007, 05:31 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Congrats Bob! Dieter Marshalls book has a small chapter on these. I am out of town (for a long time), but his book has the most information on these rare puppies. abe books has one of his copies; WALTHER PISTOLS: MODELS 1 THROUGH P99, FACTORY VARIATIONS & COPIES Dieter H. Marschall http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...lther%26x%3D85 also on gun show books; http://www.gunshowbooks.com/cgi-bin/...05&sid=6J7890s ed

03-22-2007, 01:38 PM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	My PC at home came down with Blue Screen of Death so Geeks are coming to fix it this PM. Maybe pix this weekend. My DDR gun is SN 1024 and does not have an import mark. Tom A

03-22-2007, 06:34 PM	#13
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi all, Thanks for the information in the latest post, at this point everything helps enlighten me as to what this is and represents. I think it's a fascinating piece, with a lot of history attached. MarkC your gun is outstanding with the two matching magazines and the holster. Mine came with a magazine thats correct for the gun (2/1001) but it doesn't have any markings on it. I don't know if someone removed the marks that were there or if it was never marked. I lean toward the latter but am open to inputs if I can get the pictures up on the board. I'll try to post the pics tonight, I think I have the computer problem solved. Tom A, yours is not import marked, that's outstanding. The one I have is as it probably came in with a batch of Eastern block pistols that were sold to the US. With this rare a gun I doubt it matters but it would be nice if it wasn't there. Do you know how your gun made it way to the US? I expect it must have come back with a GI or German tourist in the late 50's or early 60's. I am still trying to find out if these guns were 100% E German parts or if they used a mixture of WWII small parts. Buxton indicated that the P-38's had mixed small parts from leftover stock but was unclear on the Lugers. Tom and Mark do either of your guns have mixed E German and WWII parts? If so which ones are WWII? Mine has mixed parts as I stated above but I am not sure if it started that way or was referbed before it was shipped to the US. It doesn't look like it got a lot of ware so I am not sure it would have been reworked but I don't really know. Ed thanks for the link to the Walther book, I ordered one as a reference but it will probably take a couple of week to get here. I was too cheap to spend the extra money for the express shipping. If I get my home computer working (doing this from work), I'll try to post some other pics tonight. Anyone want a shot of something in particular? Thanks, Bob M.

03-23-2007, 10:55 AM	#15
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Mine is N1024, probably made on same shift as yours. It appears that all partsexcept mag are DDR in origin. Will examine mag closely tonight. I have no clue how it got in the country. The holster is one of the soft side pebbled P-38 type configured with a tool pouch in the top. I acquired mine to accompany my Krieghoffs as I strongly believe they were made on Krieghoff tooling. Tom A

03-23-2007, 11:56 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Tom, Are the Krieghoff rear frame wells the reinforced style, or not? --Dwight

03-24-2007, 08:32 AM	#17
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Tom A and MarkC; If you get a chance to take some pictures of your DDR Lugers I would appreciate if you could post a shot or two of the Breechblock, sear-bar, and safety bar (numbered part that blocks the sear when the safety is on) especially the proofs and numbers, as these are the parts on mine that look to be of WWII origin. Mine are not numbered to the gun. It could mean that my gun was rebuilt at some time during it's life. Not an unreasonable assumption given that it is 54 years old; yet the gun doesn't look like it has a lot of wear on it or that it was abused. Thanks, Bob M.