Trolling for Guns

[davidkachel]

I've come to learn that most of you guys collect guns other than Lugers.
Therefore I assume you have the same difficulties I have locating older guns to add to your collections.
Gun shows are getting thinner and thinner and when you do find something you've been looking for, it's often in poor shape with a ridiculous price tag (found a 1908 Colt .25 ACP in fair condition yesterday, priced at $600!; needless to say I passed).
I make once or twice a month visits to all the local gun shops and many of the local pawn shops. Once in a while I come up a winner, but most often I leave empty-handed.
My method is: gun shows, gun shops and pawn shops. Hardly original, time consuming and only marginally effective.

I find the usual online sources (gunsamerica.com, etc.) almost universally unrewarding, overpriced and with overrated conditions.

So, spill the beans guys... what do you do to "dig 'em up"? (You can tell me, I won't say a word to anybody!)
What's your favorite "hunting ground" and "bait"?

I've thought of sending postcards to new widows, but that somehow seems a little too crass!? <grin>

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi David,

Joining a collectors organization such as the NAPCA (and/or others) opens you up to other buying opportunities as well.

I have added 4 Swiss guns to my collection (and even 1-2 non-Swiss pieces) that never got on the "radar screen".

Some of the NAPCA members sell quitely amongst themselves and at their gun conventions. The SE NAPCA gun convention in August in Chattanooga, TN has been a rewarding trip for me several times. This event is for Members-only or their sponsored guests. Walk-ins are not allowed unless sponsored, at the door or prior to the show, by a member.

Many of the NAPCA member are part of an older crowd of collectors...some starting their collecting in the 1950 and 60's. Lot of these fellows you meet in person in TN do not have computers and are not on the Internet...yet they trade guns all the time to other Members and friends of friends.

Here is an info. link to the NAPCA. Once you are a Member, you get access to their Members-only Internet forum as well.

http://www.napca.net/index.aspx

About the regular gun shows : If you look closely and pay attention, you will see many guns trade ownership "behind the tables". That is, table holders will hold a gun or two under their tables and will not even place it on their tables. When one of their collecting friends show up, a deal is made. It takes some time to get to know these table holders and be part of the "select" crowd that gets offered these "under table" pieces.

BTW...there has been criticism of the NACPA organization of late over the past 2-3 years with many fellows concluding it is no longer current and behind the times and some dropping their Membership or not considering joining. The new Forum the NAPCA has put up has been an attempt to bring this Organization onto the Internet. There are 200 Members on the Forum, now, and it only started this year.

I see my Membership as worthwhile and renew yearly. The $ 50 each year is worth the opportunity for me to connect to some collectors I may not do so with, otherwise. These guys are a treasure-trove of info. to a newer collector, can save you $ Thousands by teaching you what to beware of and some will tell you the "horror" stories of Waffenfabrik-USA going back over nearly 3 decades.

[davidkachel]

"...and some will tell you the "horror" stories of Waffenfabrik-USA going back over nearly 3 decades."

??

Now you've piqued my curiosity. Please elaborate.

[Edward Tinker]

I have bought many of my guns from other collectors. After getting to know many "friends", we have shared guns back and forth, I have had several folks tell me about Simson or police lugers, so that has been my most success, is friends...


Ed

[davidkachel]

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
I have bought many of my guns from other collectors. After getting to know many "friends", we have shared guns back and forth, I have had several folks tell me about Simson or police lugers, so that has been my most success, is friends...
Ed

Ed, I feel I've got the "friends" thing well covered here. After my experience with Hugh and some of the other guys here, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a gun from one of you sight-unseen.

But most of you guys are like me... once you've got something you're not likely to let it go, unless you bought it knowing one of the other guys would probably want it, which is something I've started doing. (I bought a holster at a gun show last month that I had no interest in, but I knew one of you guys would want it, and I was right. When I find something like this I'm just going to sell it for what I paid + shipping. Maybe someone here will do the same for me.)
I'm wondering what you all do to dig guns out of the woodwork: gaslight old ladies so to speak. <just kidding about the old ladies>

Maybe we should have a new topic category here: "Guns I would sell or trade if I found the right circumstances" or "Guns I saw recently and thought you guys should know about".

For example, yesterday I found a Mossberg 4-barrel .22 pistol, functional, ugly and no grips. I didn't want it and the price was more than double the value, but one of you guys might have been interested.

I am interested in just about any early 20th century pocket automatics like the H&R self-loader, the Savage, the Ortgies, just a whole bunch of them and needless to say, they turn up at gun shows very seldom and usually in awful shape. (Of course I'm always looking for near-mint, which makes it all the much harder.)

A "What I've got, but may or may not be interested in selling/trading" topic on this forum could prove fruitful for everyone.

[davidkachel]

Here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about with regard to online sources:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...p?itemID=11468

This isn't "very good" condition to me, it's "poor" at best, absurdly overpriced at $300 and a waste of my time.
The Ortgies I currently have is in far better shape and cost me $200 just a few weeks ago.

[c3006]

David
I dont know if someone else may have told you but there is a steals and deals category under the patrons only part of the forum that keeps insiders up on stuff, a donation will get you in that door. clint

[davidkachel]

clint,

I didn't know, though I sent a donation a few weeks ago and am waiting for my classification to change.

[minigun]

Hello,
That's part of the addiction and fun of it all-THE HUNT. Everything said above is true, but I would stress that you just have to look hard and don't get into buying the first gun you want that you see. Just keep look'in so to speak and you'll eventually find the ones you want. It is so cool to find that one gun or item in all the crap that is out there. Once you've found that item, it makes it all worth while.

The above is also true about finding the right people to talk to and they will let you in on who's got what and such. The little group I talk to are absolutely the most helpful bunch I've run across in my collecting since around '91 or so. Not only do they help me with what to look out for, but again, they know who's got what generally.

[the gunman]

I have bought a number of guns from forum members. And I must say every deal was fair never a problem of any kind. One of my days delites is checking the daily forum posts. I have had the pleasure of dealing and talking to some really fine gentleman . "Thank You Gentleman"

Richie

[davidkachel]

Originally posted by the gunman
I have bought a number of guns from forum members. And I must say every deal was fair never a problem of any kind. One of my days delites is checking the daily forum posts. I have had the pleasure of dealing and talking to some really fine gentleman . "Thank You Gentleman"

Richie

Richie,

You've summed it up very nicely. The real advantage to this forum is not the availability of Luger information or the possibility to buy/sell them. It is the opportunity to know and interact with men of integrity.

[Pete Ebbink]

" "...and some will tell you the "horror" stories of Waffenfabrik-USA going back over nearly 3 decades." ?? Now you've piqued my curiosity. Please elaborate. "

David,

Just a note to new luger collectors that boosting-for-profit goes way back...as many old, honest collectors I know have confided to me.

I think the level of boosting and the money invovled and the sheer number of lugers affected has just simply increased over the years.

The "crud" in the boosting trade is both young and old. As the old ones pass away (and go to a special kind of hell...IMHO...), new characters come up to replace them.

Luger collectors are not alone...I have heard from several collectors they have gotten out of Colt pistol and Winchester rifle collecting for the same reasons...the boosting art is getting very good and harder to detect.

[davidkachel]

Pete,

I presume that by "boosting" you mean making a gun look like it is in better condition than it is, faking serial number matches, making guns look more rare than they are, etc.?

[Pete Ebbink]

Yes...all of the above...and even "force matching" small parts with the "right" 2-digit serial numbered part(s) to restore a non-matching gun back to "matching' status and then selling it for more money...

Another big boosting activity is taking a simply, cheap "donor" gun like the blank-chambered 1920's and making very exotic, rare, and more costly "phony-balony" lugers out of them...this is more high-end boosting and takes more skill on the part of the "mechanics".

[thegundude]

Pete, that's one of the reasons I haven't gone for some of the higher priced "bargains" I've seen. There haven't been many that I was actually considering buying but there have been a few that almost got me. I still don't know if they were real or fake, but when a 3 day (or less) auction comes up with a low ending bid, I have to wonder...

The way I have to find my guns is through reputable people. I would buy from most of the guys here that I've come to know, for example. If a person selling at auction has a store or a lot of good feedback, I'll probably buy from him. I've laid off of good auctions because I doubted the sellers creds.

As Scarlotte (?) said in "Gone with the Wind"... "I've always relied on the kindness of strangers"...

[Roadkill]

I've found that regular visits to every pawnshop in a 50 mile radius with cash helps. Have cards made up, list what you want. Lots of times they won't purchase an expensive gun because they don't want to have hold that much $ in it until they have a sale, especially low end ones. If they know you will pay cash and they can make $50 -$75 on a simple transaction quickly it definitely can be to your benefit. Last week I got a smoking deal on an Colt 1911A1 NRM stainless series 80 that way. A shop called me at work, asked what I'd pay for it, I asked what he had to have, we reached a quick deal, I left work, went to bank, was back at work 45 minutes later. A few weeks earlier same thing happened from another shop on a Bushmaster AR15 M4. I've also bought a P38, .44 revolver, P1, and a Nazi HP from members here. Never have been disappointed,

[Pete Ebbink]

David,

Here is an example of what might be a "boosted" piece.

It is a nice Dutch luger, described as all-matching for about $ 3K.

But one photo shows it has an Erfurt side plate...which is not appropriate. The Erfurt side plate would usually have its 2-digit serial shown on its surface in the 'military' style. I think the photo may even show evidence of at least a "1" number not totally removed.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifie...976830216.aspx