Name that Luger

Curly1 · 12-25-2005, 09:04 AM

These guys are trying to id this piece. What do you think?

http://www.sarcoinc.com/luger-variation.html

Roadkill · 12-25-2005, 11:01 AM

Genossenschaft Maschinenbau Staat Getriebe

Collective Machine State Factories

When the Russians took over they combined factories under collective control and restarted production of whatever was there. The term Maschinenbau means the whole machine building process to include design, engineering, tool making, and production.
They combined production facilities under broad areas of control. The GMSG might be found on bicycles, motorcycle parts, any type of industrial products. Reference the Luger, my completely unsubstantiated guess is that this is a post war remaining parts gun assembled in the 1946-1950 period while the factory (Mauser) was under direct Communst supervision. The 1191 is in the standard unit marking method. Let some of the experts define substantiate the Mauser profile of the gun, also the font used for the "6".

rk

Vlim · 12-26-2005, 08:26 AM

Hi,

Nice theory, but none of the Mauser sites was under direct communist control, neither Russian nor East-German.

Oberndorf lies way too much to the southwest and the Americans, French and British took initial control of the site, French kept control until 1948.

The Berlin site, part of the DWM complex, also became part of the French sector and never became DDR territory.

The Russians did manage to ransack the site before the French took over, but the Russians only had the site for a couple of days.

George Anderson · 12-26-2005, 08:38 AM

I think Roadkill is dead on the money. Although the commies didn't get any Mauser real estate, we know that they busily set about refurbishing P08s aplenty. They had Suhl and there were former P08 manufacturers there.

Navy · 12-26-2005, 10:29 AM

My money is on RK's theory.

Tom A

Schupo · 12-26-2005, 11:03 AM

A very interesting theory. We know that the P.08 was rebuilt by DDR Volkspolizei (VP) armorers who eventually found a home at the VEB Ernst ThÃ?Â¤lmann facility in Suhl. Old Luger pistols were partially or completely refurbished and new ones were manufactured as a test. The VP armorer instructional workshop was formed in 1949 by the SMAD. At some point in time new machinery (or old refurbished machinery) was used to make P.08 parts and some completely new pistols that had an "N" prefix to their serial numbers. Most new barrels were newly manufactured in 1953 according to their markings. This machinery had to come from somewhere and this is an interesting explaination.

I have not heard this G.M.S.G. theory before but it does seem plausable to me. The pistol seems to be refurbished with added markings. It does have cancelled East German VP armorer stamps. It would be interesting to know if this pistol, or others that are G.M.S.G. marked, have some newly manufactured East German parts. It would also be interesting to know if similarly marked pistols also have remnants of VP armorer markings. The story that comes with this pistol also seems to support the East German connection as it is stated that it came from Europe with other DDR pistols.

An interesting theory.

Vlim · 12-26-2005, 03:25 PM

Hi,

There is little doubt in my mind that this pistol underwent a refurbishing program, similar like the VoPo's we know. There is also absolute certainty that no Mauser plant or machinery was used, as it didn't end up in DDR hands.

The VEB Ernst Thaelmann, while being based in Suhl would most probably have used Simson/Krieghoff material or indeed set up her own production facilities (for barrels and assorted small parts). The crown/N on the pistol discussed is in line with the East-German proofing of the post war days.

I doubt that this pistol was made or refurbished BY GMSG, but rather FOR it. Perhaps something of a company security force?

Roadkill · 12-26-2005, 07:17 PM

Therories are theories, that's why they are called theories. When I was doing the Google advanced search in German to put together the string GMSG/DDR ect I located a gentleman in Germany who was asking for the same information about a GMSG Luger. This was in November 2004. The site/forum where he posted the question was no longer in operation. No contact was possible. No answer was posted. G.van Vlimmeren, you read/write/speak German much better than I ever will, its not an easy hobby especially for a redneck like me sitting in the backwoods on a mountain with a couple of ugly dogs in North Alabama. Can you come up with a better possible combination for the meaning of GMSG stamped on a WWII era gun located in the eastblock where all manufacturing was controlled by the Russians?

I'm not saying I'm right, just can't come up with a better explanation.

rk

Vlim · 12-27-2005, 05:30 AM

Hi RK,

Don't get me wrong, I think you're on the right track. There's little or no doubt about the GMSG / DDR link. The pistol has many hallmarks of a normal 'VoPo' rework and might have been issued to some sort of company security force, although it's not impossible that GMSG had something to do with the refurbishing.

But, in the DDR they used a 'lieferantnummer' or manufacturer's code similar to the nazi-style. The DDR codes were 4-digit numbers, 1001 being a wellknown one, representing the former Haenel works. The Haenel works didn't mark or stamp the pistols they refurbished with a maker's code, only newly manufactured magazines had the code.

It would be nice if GMSG had code 1191

, but sadly I haven't been able to find DDR code lists yet.

Basically we have two options, both valid until more proof surfaces:
-GMSG is refurbishers mark.
-GMSG is a property mark.

Unquestionably, the pistol has a DDR background.

12-25-2005, 09:04 AM	#1
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,247 Thanks: 125 Thanked 717 Times in 374 Posts	Name that Luger These guys are trying to id this piece. What do you think? http://www.sarcoinc.com/luger-variation.html __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

12-26-2005, 11:03 AM	#6
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	A very interesting theory. We know that the P.08 was rebuilt by DDR Volkspolizei (VP) armorers who eventually found a home at the VEB Ernst ThÃ?Â¤lmann facility in Suhl. Old Luger pistols were partially or completely refurbished and new ones were manufactured as a test. The VP armorer instructional workshop was formed in 1949 by the SMAD. At some point in time new machinery (or old refurbished machinery) was used to make P.08 parts and some completely new pistols that had an "N" prefix to their serial numbers. Most new barrels were newly manufactured in 1953 according to their markings. This machinery had to come from somewhere and this is an interesting explaination. I have not heard this G.M.S.G. theory before but it does seem plausable to me. The pistol seems to be refurbished with added markings. It does have cancelled East German VP armorer stamps. It would be interesting to know if this pistol, or others that are G.M.S.G. marked, have some newly manufactured East German parts. It would also be interesting to know if similarly marked pistols also have remnants of VP armorer markings. The story that comes with this pistol also seems to support the East German connection as it is stated that it came from Europe with other DDR pistols. An interesting theory. __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

12-25-2005, 11:01 AM	#2
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Genossenschaft Maschinenbau Staat Getriebe Collective Machine State Factories When the Russians took over they combined factories under collective control and restarted production of whatever was there. The term Maschinenbau means the whole machine building process to include design, engineering, tool making, and production. They combined production facilities under broad areas of control. The GMSG might be found on bicycles, motorcycle parts, any type of industrial products. Reference the Luger, my completely unsubstantiated guess is that this is a post war remaining parts gun assembled in the 1946-1950 period while the factory (Mauser) was under direct Communst supervision. The 1191 is in the standard unit marking method. Let some of the experts define substantiate the Mauser profile of the gun, also the font used for the "6". rk

12-26-2005, 08:26 AM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Nice theory, but none of the Mauser sites was under direct communist control, neither Russian nor East-German. Oberndorf lies way too much to the southwest and the Americans, French and British took initial control of the site, French kept control until 1948. The Berlin site, part of the DWM complex, also became part of the French sector and never became DDR territory. The Russians did manage to ransack the site before the French took over, but the Russians only had the site for a couple of days.

12-26-2005, 08:38 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I think Roadkill is dead on the money. Although the commies didn't get any Mauser real estate, we know that they busily set about refurbishing P08s aplenty. They had Suhl and there were former P08 manufacturers there.

12-26-2005, 10:29 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	My money is on RK's theory. Tom A

12-26-2005, 03:25 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, There is little doubt in my mind that this pistol underwent a refurbishing program, similar like the VoPo's we know. There is also absolute certainty that no Mauser plant or machinery was used, as it didn't end up in DDR hands. The VEB Ernst Thaelmann, while being based in Suhl would most probably have used Simson/Krieghoff material or indeed set up her own production facilities (for barrels and assorted small parts). The crown/N on the pistol discussed is in line with the East-German proofing of the post war days. I doubt that this pistol was made or refurbished BY GMSG, but rather FOR it. Perhaps something of a company security force?

12-26-2005, 07:17 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Therories are theories, that's why they are called theories. When I was doing the Google advanced search in German to put together the string GMSG/DDR ect I located a gentleman in Germany who was asking for the same information about a GMSG Luger. This was in November 2004. The site/forum where he posted the question was no longer in operation. No contact was possible. No answer was posted. G.van Vlimmeren, you read/write/speak German much better than I ever will, its not an easy hobby especially for a redneck like me sitting in the backwoods on a mountain with a couple of ugly dogs in North Alabama. Can you come up with a better possible combination for the meaning of GMSG stamped on a WWII era gun located in the eastblock where all manufacturing was controlled by the Russians? I'm not saying I'm right, just can't come up with a better explanation. rk

12-27-2005, 05:30 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi RK, Don't get me wrong, I think you're on the right track. There's little or no doubt about the GMSG / DDR link. The pistol has many hallmarks of a normal 'VoPo' rework and might have been issued to some sort of company security force, although it's not impossible that GMSG had something to do with the refurbishing. But, in the DDR they used a 'lieferantnummer' or manufacturer's code similar to the nazi-style. The DDR codes were 4-digit numbers, 1001 being a wellknown one, representing the former Haenel works. The Haenel works didn't mark or stamp the pistols they refurbished with a maker's code, only newly manufactured magazines had the code. It would be nice if GMSG had code 1191 , but sadly I haven't been able to find DDR code lists yet. Basically we have two options, both valid until more proof surfaces: -GMSG is refurbishers mark. -GMSG is a property mark. Unquestionably, the pistol has a DDR background.