Police safety sear?

thegundude · 08-14-2005, 12:40 PM

What is a police safety sear and how can I identify it?

What is it's significance in making a purchase?

Thanks in advance...

Edward Tinker · 08-14-2005, 12:52 PM

A police sear safety was a requirement in 1933 (also a magazine safety), the mag was discontinued and taken off of most guns, while the sear remained.

Here is a picture of one;

thegundude · 08-14-2005, 01:06 PM

Thanks Ed. It would appear that none of mine, a 1939 42 code, a 1920 commercial and the 1918 Erfurt, have this extra bit. Should they?

Edward Tinker · 08-14-2005, 01:19 PM

only if it was a police model.

Certain lugers were sold / bought by the police. If it has one, then it is proof that at least in 1933 and higher, that it was with the police. I am sure there are other guns that were issued to police and there were no police unit marks or sear safety, but since it was a requirement, the chances are that most police issued guns had a sear safety put onto it.

Ed

thegundude · 08-15-2005, 09:49 AM

Ohhhh okay. Now it's making sense.

I'm often asked if "it" has the police safety sear, etc. I was wondering why that is and why it could be present on any of my guns, nevermind a specific one...

Thanks again Ed. You're a prince...

wworker · 08-17-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

What is it's significance in making a purchase?

Steve asked about the significance.

How does the presence of the sear safety affect the value of a Luger?

thegundude · 08-17-2005, 12:31 PM

Hey Ken, welcome to the Luger Forums.... :-)

And the Luger club.....

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wworker
How does the presence of the sear safety affect the value of a Luger?

The presence of a sear safety itself doesn't affect a Luger's value. It is a determining characteristic of the Police variation, which has its own range of value depending on condition and other Police characteristics.

--Dwight

thegundude · 08-17-2005, 12:55 PM

Dwight, are - generally speaking - the police variations more valuable? Or are they no more or less rare than anything else?

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2005, 01:19 PM

Steve,

As with any other variation, they have their own range of interest and characteristics. A mismatched Police gun with a poor finish and no unit marks will certainly have no more value than any other Luger for shooting. A Police Luger all-matching, in superb condition with one or two matching magazines (much more commonly found than with military Lugers) will be valued as much as any Military Luger in similar condition, perhaps a bit higher with the magazines.

Police unit marks may add a bit of value, quite a bit if they are uncommon or rare--EWB, for instance, or RG. Since many (perhaps most?) Police Lugers are found with unit marks, it might be just as accurate to say that those without may have a bit less value.

The downside is, there are many fewer collectors who specialize in Police Lugers than other variations, so there is a much smaller pool of individuals who are interested in paying premium prices for these guns.

And there does seem to be a relative ceiling for Police Lugers' values. Judging by prices, they are not (and in my view never will be) as much as Artillery Lugers, or Navy Lugers, or fine examples of 1900 or 1906 Commercial and American Eagle Lugers, or some of the more exotic military contract or other unique variations.

--Dwight

thegundude · 08-17-2005, 01:28 PM

Great, thanks Dwight... That pretty well sums it up for me....

Pete Ebbink · 08-17-2005, 02:33 PM

Hi Ed T.,

What is the scoope on the odd "2983" numbering on the photo you posted...???

Edward Tinker · 08-17-2005, 03:23 PM

ahhhhh, that one Pete... Unsure, but this one also has a "rack" number on the rear. Although only the dutch guns truely have a 3rd or 4th number to differentiate it, my feeling is that another gun in the unit had a serial number almost matching, thus the four digits on the side-plate.
Pete, when will you be in the denver area next? I owe you at least a steak dinner?

Steve, I specifically collect weimar police, and in my opinion, a nice 95-97% weimar police (imperial reissue or new manufacture) with one matching mag will still be several hundred dollars less than a one matching mag WW1 gun. Even if both were, say 1916 DWM's... (one a police reissue, the other untouched, although the chances of it having been issued to the army at that time is pretty good.)

ed

wworker · 08-17-2005, 03:24 PM

To the point, Steve and I are probably thinking of a certain Luger for sale.

It has the sear safety, is an S/42 made in 1939 and is all matching, the condition, excellent or at least very good.

The gentleman is asking between $4500 to $5000 depending on which day of the week you ask him for the price.

Being the inexperienced Luger collector that I am, I am wondering whether this price is realistic, or is his head in the clouds.

All feedback is appreciated.

Edward Tinker · 08-17-2005, 03:30 PM

unless three matching mag complete Rig, I think it is several thousand dollars too high...

A banner can get expensive, but an S-42??? Even Simpson's isn't that high for a two matching (non-police)...

ed

ken d · 08-17-2005, 04:28 PM

wworker:

A 1939 "S/42" is not too common and with a sear safety (Police procurement est. at 600) it is scarce. TRL page 40.

Regards Ken D

wworker · 08-17-2005, 05:06 PM

ken d, I've read the same book, but I also found 2 of these S/42 Police issue with sear safeties on the net at approximately $1.3K.

With the other seller asking $4.5K to $5K, there seems to be a paradox here.

Edward Tinker · 08-17-2005, 05:41 PM

I think it is simply a mistake to buy expensive unless you really know what you are looking at (no offense meant). As an example, If I am offered a Navy or a Krieghoff, I simply would not know it enough to pay $4k - 8K and those are going prices for them.

If the price seems high, it is either 2 mag matching and very nice 98%+ or simply too high. The better the condition, the higher the price, that is why crummy guns are restored and sold as high blued originals by shysters.

Ed

policeluger · 08-17-2005, 05:46 PM

wworker....for 4.5/5k per gun.....my gun vault is open to you

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2005, 05:51 PM

Also, note that "boosting" Lugers by adding sear safeties has been occurring to fake rare, Nazi-era Police pistols. Make sure that the serial number is in the proper range, that the rivet attaching the sear safety is white steel (not brass or blued), and that the cutout at the top of the sideplate is rough-edged and not blued.

--Dwight

08-14-2005, 12:40 PM	#1
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Police safety sear? What is a police safety sear and how can I identify it? What is it's significance in making a purchase? Thanks in advance... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-14-2005, 12:52 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	A police sear safety was a requirement in 1933 (also a magazine safety), the mag was discontinued and taken off of most guns, while the sear remained. Here is a picture of one; Attached Images

08-14-2005, 01:06 PM	#3
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Ed. It would appear that none of mine, a 1939 42 code, a 1920 commercial and the 1918 Erfurt, have this extra bit. Should they? __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-15-2005, 09:49 AM	#5
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Ohhhh okay. Now it's making sense. I'm often asked if "it" has the police safety sear, etc. I was wondering why that is and why it could be present on any of my guns, nevermind a specific one... Thanks again Ed. You're a prince... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-17-2005, 12:31 PM	#7
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Hey Ken, welcome to the Luger Forums.... :-) And the Luger club..... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-14-2005, 01:19 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	only if it was a police model. Certain lugers were sold / bought by the police. If it has one, then it is proof that at least in 1933 and higher, that it was with the police. I am sure there are other guns that were issued to police and there were no police unit marks or sear safety, but since it was a requirement, the chances are that most police issued guns had a sear safety put onto it. Ed

08-17-2005, 12:55 PM	#9
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Dwight, are - generally speaking - the police variations more valuable? Or are they no more or less rare than anything else? __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-17-2005, 01:19 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Steve, As with any other variation, they have their own range of interest and characteristics. A mismatched Police gun with a poor finish and no unit marks will certainly have no more value than any other Luger for shooting. A Police Luger all-matching, in superb condition with one or two matching magazines (much more commonly found than with military Lugers) will be valued as much as any Military Luger in similar condition, perhaps a bit higher with the magazines. Police unit marks may add a bit of value, quite a bit if they are uncommon or rare--EWB, for instance, or RG. Since many (perhaps most?) Police Lugers are found with unit marks, it might be just as accurate to say that those without may have a bit less value. The downside is, there are many fewer collectors who specialize in Police Lugers than other variations, so there is a much smaller pool of individuals who are interested in paying premium prices for these guns. And there does seem to be a relative ceiling for Police Lugers' values. Judging by prices, they are not (and in my view never will be) as much as Artillery Lugers, or Navy Lugers, or fine examples of 1900 or 1906 Commercial and American Eagle Lugers, or some of the more exotic military contract or other unique variations. --Dwight

08-17-2005, 01:28 PM	#11
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Great, thanks Dwight... That pretty well sums it up for me.... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-17-2005, 02:33 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Ed T., What is the scoope on the odd "2983" numbering on the photo you posted...???

08-17-2005, 03:23 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	ahhhhh, that one Pete... Unsure, but this one also has a "rack" number on the rear. Although only the dutch guns truely have a 3rd or 4th number to differentiate it, my feeling is that another gun in the unit had a serial number almost matching, thus the four digits on the side-plate. Pete, when will you be in the denver area next? I owe you at least a steak dinner? Steve, I specifically collect weimar police, and in my opinion, a nice 95-97% weimar police (imperial reissue or new manufacture) with one matching mag will still be several hundred dollars less than a one matching mag WW1 gun. Even if both were, say 1916 DWM's... (one a police reissue, the other untouched, although the chances of it having been issued to the army at that time is pretty good.) ed

08-17-2005, 03:24 PM	#14
wworker User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To the point, Steve and I are probably thinking of a certain Luger for sale. It has the sear safety, is an S/42 made in 1939 and is all matching, the condition, excellent or at least very good. The gentleman is asking between $4500 to $5000 depending on which day of the week you ask him for the price. Being the inexperienced Luger collector that I am, I am wondering whether this price is realistic, or is his head in the clouds. All feedback is appreciated.

08-17-2005, 03:30 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	unless three matching mag complete Rig, I think it is several thousand dollars too high... A banner can get expensive, but an S-42??? Even Simpson's isn't that high for a two matching (non-police)... ed

08-17-2005, 04:28 PM	#16
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	wworker: A 1939 "S/42" is not too common and with a sear safety (Police procurement est. at 600) it is scarce. TRL page 40. Regards Ken D

08-17-2005, 05:06 PM	#17
wworker User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ken d, I've read the same book, but I also found 2 of these S/42 Police issue with sear safeties on the net at approximately $1.3K. With the other seller asking $4.5K to $5K, there seems to be a paradox here.

08-17-2005, 05:41 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I think it is simply a mistake to buy expensive unless you really know what you are looking at (no offense meant). As an example, If I am offered a Navy or a Krieghoff, I simply would not know it enough to pay $4k - 8K and those are going prices for them. If the price seems high, it is either 2 mag matching and very nice 98%+ or simply too high. The better the condition, the higher the price, that is why crummy guns are restored and sold as high blued originals by shysters. Ed

08-17-2005, 05:46 PM	#19
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	wworker....for 4.5/5k per gun.....my gun vault is open to you

08-17-2005, 05:51 PM	#20
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Also, note that "boosting" Lugers by adding sear safeties has been occurring to fake rare, Nazi-era Police pistols. Make sure that the serial number is in the proper range, that the rivet attaching the sear safety is white steel (not brass or blued), and that the cutout at the top of the sideplate is rough-edged and not blued. --Dwight