Help needed 1917 DWM

Danielharp44022 · 08-08-2005, 12:00 AM

I need some help and after reading your posts for the last couple of weeks I think you are best qualified to help me.

My young son is a WW II history buff, My father served in the 37 Div. and saw action from Guadal Canal to Manila. On a visit to one of my wife's client's she showed my son a Luger that her husband had that was brought back from his father in WW I. She has offered it as a gift to our son, her children would have no apparition of it. My wife and I insist we pay for it and I am seeking it's market value so we can make a proper offer.

Here is the info to go with the pics:

The clips both are wood bottom and one is matched to the gun 7923 the other is 8216 both have + under the number and 8216 has more of a straw color. The grips have a medium feel not smooth and not sharp. The inside left grip is marked 23 and a Z and another mark I can't make out could be an N or H but more like a Pi symbol. The right grip is 23 and the unknown symbol. There is some light rust on the frame of the handle from the clip release to the butt. The right side of the frame handle (as seen with the grips off) has an L or a 7 on the bottom on the trigger side and a J near the bottom of the spring and a capital I and an O near the top of the spring. The left side of the handle frame has an N on the bottom trigger side and a J on the bottom of the spring and an x near the top of the spring. The number on the barrel between the two serial numbers is 8,82 and eagel marking near the top of the base of the barrel is consistent with the marks you show for a 1917 DWM as are figures on the right side above the trigger. The front sight has an N stamped on the bottom of the front of the sight above the barrel opening. The front top of the action that protrudes into the breech has a letter G on the left side of the part that protrudes into the breech that is visible when the action is pulled back. All other numbers are matching 23.

The holster is not in very good shape the strap that goes to the buckle is torn off at the place it would have been buckled. It is stamped inside Liefergs Vereinig d Sattermstr. z. GOTTINGEN 1916. Hand scribed inside the holster is Mo"lius (the quotation mark above the o). There is no tool.

The gun's bluing is worn off at holster contact points, end of barrel sides above the trigger. The action cannot be pulled back when the safety is on and the action will not stay open when pulled back all the way. The inside of the barrel is not shiny as I have seen described by some owners but from what I can see it is riffled.

Thank you all for any information you can provide for both the gun;s value and history.

Danielharp44022

Edward Tinker · 08-08-2005, 12:22 AM

Hello and Welcome Daniel!

A 1917 DWM is not uncommon, but still worth reasonable money if all original. If reblued, badly pitted, or mismatched, then it'd be worth $600 for the gun, another $200 for the extra mag and holster.

More than one picture is needed to help, (I moved the picture to here).

If in original shape, not reblued, maybe twice that. I would offer them $800 and see what they say, might take less.

Ed

Danielharp44022 · 08-08-2005, 12:23 AM

Sorry again I am new at this, can you tell. Here are links to the other pics

Danielharp44022 · 08-08-2005, 12:24 AM

Thanks for your help Ed.

Daniel

Dwight Gruber · 08-08-2005, 01:41 AM

Daniel,

Can you show us the magazine bottoms, and closeups of the follower buttons on the other side?

It is correct that the toggle cannot be pulled back when the safety is on, this is an indication that the firing pin is not cocked.

The should only stay open if an empty magazine is inserted in the gun. If it will not stay open with either magazine, empty, inserted; there is a mechanical problem.

--Dwight

policeluger · 08-08-2005, 09:15 AM

I would take the gift in the spirit it was offered, however a rig such as this, and it is original finish not being re-blued, is worth in the 2k range....very nice gun.

Lugerdoc · 08-08-2005, 09:43 AM

Daniel, It's possible that this PO8 is missing its holdopen. Since this is a numbered part, it may technically be considered a mismatched shooter, so a $500 or $600 offer may be considered fair, but with the nice unaltered original rust blue, nice matching grips and magazine (repairable holster & spare mag, I would also consider a $200 bonus), if you can find the matching HO you would have a $1500+ rig. TH

policeluger · 08-08-2005, 09:59 AM

Dan, reference www.simpsonltd.com , see what he is getting for WW1 era DWM's...and you have one matching mag...a biggie!

saxman · 08-08-2005, 10:18 AM

I douby he's missing the hold-open or anything else - he just doesn't know the the action won't stay open without the magazine. Looks like an exceptional original 1917 to me.

Danielharp44022 · 08-08-2005, 04:40 PM

I will be getting more pics of the wood on the bottom of the mags and other details. I did try to pull the action back to the hold with the non matching mag in it but it doesn't hold open eather.

Thanks for the continued comments.

Daniel

Edward Tinker · 08-08-2005, 05:28 PM

I have had a gun that would hold open with one mag and not others...

Danielharp44022 · 08-08-2005, 07:09 PM

Here are pic of mags and one with a nick.

The follower button on the matching mag has a flat spot seen in the pics but the non matching mag looks good and the action with it in the gun still won't stay open. Could the dent on the right side of the gun have anything to do with it. If the action doesn't stay open does that effect the value?

Thanks again,

Daniel

Dwight Gruber · 08-08-2005, 07:50 PM

Daniel,

The 7923 magazine, from the photograph, certainly seens to be authentic. You haven't mentioned the presence or absence of a small script letter under the serial number on the front of the frame; if indeed there is not one, it would appear that this Luger has a matching magazine. The + stamp on the mag base indicates that this magazine was the issued spare.

The unfortunate mark on the right side of the frame has nothing to do with the holdopen problem. Nothing more can be suggested on this situation until the gun has been taken down to see the inside of the frame.

--Dwight

lugerholsterrepair · 08-08-2005, 08:03 PM

Danial, If this Kind Woman offering your Son this pistol is not in need of the money and she apparently is not or she wouldn't offer it, I would suggest this offer to her. Tell her you are putting $1000.00 in her name towards your sons college education fund. This should make her doubly happy as she is giving a gift from the heart and at the same time providing something for the future. She gets to give two gifts and be remembered to boot. Just a thought...If she needs the money, pay her the thousand and you got a bargain. Jerry Burney

Danielharp44022 · 08-09-2005, 01:59 AM

Here is a Pic of the front number

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ont_number.jpg

There are no other marks by the numbers 7923 except the bottom of the barrel under the 7923 is 8,82. I believe the last number of the 8,82 is a 2 the top curl and the bottom line is there but the center section of teh two is not

No one seems conserned that the action doesn't stay back. Is it an easy adjustment or fix or doesn't it matter considering everything else. Does the mark on the left side of the gun above the grip affect it's value?

Dwight Gruber · 08-09-2005, 02:24 AM

Daniel,

Thanks for the photo of the frame-front serial#, further confirmation of the matching magazine.

The mark on the (right side of the gun, I think you mean) is unfortunate, but considering the overall condition of this Luger it detracts very little--my opinion, entirely.

The holdopen malfunction is not a matter of lack of concern. It is an imponderable, there is nothing to say about it, until interior of the gun is visible. Is the holdopen broken? missing? or is there possibly some other circumstance? All will be told when it can be seen, and not considerable before.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 08-09-2005, 05:57 AM

Daniel,

Welcome to the Lugerforum

Here is a blueprint image that shows the holdopen device installation location looking down at the grip frame with the upper assembly removed.

If you disassemble the top half of the gun from the grip frame, and look down into the grip, you will see the holdopen if it is present in this gun.

the holdopen device is operated by the magazine button when the magazine is empty... it pushed up the holdopen to catch the bolt when the last shot is fired or if the toggle is manually pulled all the way back with a functional empty magazine.

This function can be seen with the right grip removed.

Another reason that the holdopen might not work is that the inside of the wooden grip may be slightly swollen from moisture content or age, and it may impede the magazine button from reaching the full top position to operate the holdopen... If this turns out to be the reason, slighlty relieving the inside of the grip where it bears on the mag button will solve your problem.

Please post a photo of the inside top of the frame with the upper receiver removed and we can make a definitive opinion on the status of your holdopen.

All of the above is true only with original magazines or magazines that are made to original specifications. Triple-K aftermarket magazines for instance, have non-spec (smaller) mag buttons that will not reliably operate the holdopen.

...and now a word from our sponsor

The image posted above was created from the set of Luger blueprints that I sell on CD... This month the CD is 20 percent off the regular price of $25.00 and is only $20.00 postpaid first class mail...

If you are interested in purchasing the CD, send me a private message or you can let me know in this thread, or my ad thread at the top of the "For Sale " forum...

Danielharp44022 · 08-09-2005, 01:43 PM

Thanks John and Dwight:

The action does not stay open even with the grip off and using the mag that has a good round button. What ever the reason the hold open pin is not working, how does the fact that it doesn't work effect the functionality of the gun? If it were a shooter could you safely shoot the gun? What effect does a non working hold open pin have on the gun's value?

Since I don't own the gun yet removing the upper reciever doesn't seem like a good idea not to mention the fact that I don't have the tool or knowledge to do it.

Thanks for your continued comments, I have been taken by the beauty and history of this gun and can well understand the passion you all have for it as collectors. I am a gun owner through my grandfather and father's collection of hunting guns and pistols. They asked that the guns stay in the family and not be sold or traded so I never needed to know thier value. This is my first experience through my young son of a historic or military gun.

Daniel

Dwight Gruber · 08-09-2005, 03:18 PM

Daniel,

A Luger with a non-functional holdopen has no effect on the functionality of the gun, except the action does not stay open after the last round is expended from the magazine. It may be useful for you to know that the P-08 model made from 1908-1914 was manufactured without a holdopen as a cost-saving measure. Most were retrofitted during the course of their military service, evidence that this was an annoyance and a bad idea, not any sort of inherent operational problem.

It has no bearing on the safety of the gun to shoot, although many collectors (myself included) would suggest that a Luger in the condition of the one you picture is far too valuable to shoot.

There is no way to know what the holdopen problem does to the gun's value until it can be determined -why- it is happening. A broken or missing holdopen (with its potential for ultimately becoming a mismatched part) could have consderable impact on the value of a Luger in marginal condition. In the condition you picture, the effect is only slightly significant--my opinion only.

Removing the upper receiver is a simple manual operation requiring no tools. Taking a Luger down to its frame, receiver, toggle-train, firing-pin, and very often grips, is one of the things a serious prospective Luger purchaser expects to be able to do, by permission; and seller expects to have done.

--Dwight

saxman · 08-09-2005, 04:41 PM

It could also just be cruddy, gummy, dirty and rusty on the inside like most old guns that have been lying around for 50 years, and the old mag springs could be shot. It's just a gun - clean and oil it before attempting to assess functionality.

08-08-2005, 12:00 AM	#1
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help needed 1917 DWM I need some help and after reading your posts for the last couple of weeks I think you are best qualified to help me. My young son is a WW II history buff, My father served in the 37 Div. and saw action from Guadal Canal to Manila. On a visit to one of my wife's client's she showed my son a Luger that her husband had that was brought back from his father in WW I. She has offered it as a gift to our son, her children would have no apparition of it. My wife and I insist we pay for it and I am seeking it's market value so we can make a proper offer. Here is the info to go with the pics: The clips both are wood bottom and one is matched to the gun 7923 the other is 8216 both have + under the number and 8216 has more of a straw color. The grips have a medium feel not smooth and not sharp. The inside left grip is marked 23 and a Z and another mark I can't make out could be an N or H but more like a Pi symbol. The right grip is 23 and the unknown symbol. There is some light rust on the frame of the handle from the clip release to the butt. The right side of the frame handle (as seen with the grips off) has an L or a 7 on the bottom on the trigger side and a J near the bottom of the spring and a capital I and an O near the top of the spring. The left side of the handle frame has an N on the bottom trigger side and a J on the bottom of the spring and an x near the top of the spring. The number on the barrel between the two serial numbers is 8,82 and eagel marking near the top of the base of the barrel is consistent with the marks you show for a 1917 DWM as are figures on the right side above the trigger. The front sight has an N stamped on the bottom of the front of the sight above the barrel opening. The front top of the action that protrudes into the breech has a letter G on the left side of the part that protrudes into the breech that is visible when the action is pulled back. All other numbers are matching 23. The holster is not in very good shape the strap that goes to the buckle is torn off at the place it would have been buckled. It is stamped inside Liefergs Vereinig d Sattermstr. z. GOTTINGEN 1916. Hand scribed inside the holster is Mo"lius (the quotation mark above the o). There is no tool. The gun's bluing is worn off at holster contact points, end of barrel sides above the trigger. The action cannot be pulled back when the safety is on and the action will not stay open when pulled back all the way. The inside of the barrel is not shiny as I have seen described by some owners but from what I can see it is riffled. Thank you all for any information you can provide for both the gun;s value and history. Danielharp44022

08-08-2005, 12:23 AM	#3
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Danielharp more photos Sorry again I am new at this, can you tell. Here are links to the other pics

08-08-2005, 09:43 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Daniel, It's possible that this PO8 is missing its holdopen. Since this is a numbered part, it may technically be considered a mismatched shooter, so a $500 or $600 offer may be considered fair, but with the nice unaltered original rust blue, nice matching grips and magazine (repairable holster & spare mag, I would also consider a $200 bonus), if you can find the matching HO you would have a $1500+ rig. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-08-2005, 10:18 AM	#9
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I douby he's missing the hold-open or anything else - he just doesn't know the the action won't stay open without the magazine. Looks like an exceptional original 1917 to me. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-08-2005, 05:28 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	I have had a gun that would hold open with one mag and not others... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-08-2005, 12:22 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Hello and Welcome Daniel! A 1917 DWM is not uncommon, but still worth reasonable money if all original. If reblued, badly pitted, or mismatched, then it'd be worth $600 for the gun, another $200 for the extra mag and holster. More than one picture is needed to help, (I moved the picture to here). If in original shape, not reblued, maybe twice that. I would offer them $800 and see what they say, might take less. Ed

08-08-2005, 12:24 AM	#4
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your help Ed. Daniel

08-08-2005, 01:41 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Daniel, Can you show us the magazine bottoms, and closeups of the follower buttons on the other side? It is correct that the toggle cannot be pulled back when the safety is on, this is an indication that the firing pin is not cocked. The should only stay open if an empty magazine is inserted in the gun. If it will not stay open with either magazine, empty, inserted; there is a mechanical problem. --Dwight

08-08-2005, 09:15 AM	#6
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I would take the gift in the spirit it was offered, however a rig such as this, and it is original finish not being re-blued, is worth in the 2k range....very nice gun.

08-08-2005, 09:59 AM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Dan, reference www.simpsonltd.com , see what he is getting for WW1 era DWM's...and you have one matching mag...a biggie!

08-08-2005, 04:40 PM	#10
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will be getting more pics of the wood on the bottom of the mags and other details. I did try to pull the action back to the hold with the non matching mag in it but it doesn't hold open eather. Thanks for the continued comments. Daniel

08-08-2005, 07:09 PM	#12
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are pic of mags and one with a nick. The follower button on the matching mag has a flat spot seen in the pics but the non matching mag looks good and the action with it in the gun still won't stay open. Could the dent on the right side of the gun have anything to do with it. If the action doesn't stay open does that effect the value? Thanks again, Daniel

08-08-2005, 07:50 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Daniel, The 7923 magazine, from the photograph, certainly seens to be authentic. You haven't mentioned the presence or absence of a small script letter under the serial number on the front of the frame; if indeed there is not one, it would appear that this Luger has a matching magazine. The + stamp on the mag base indicates that this magazine was the issued spare. The unfortunate mark on the right side of the frame has nothing to do with the holdopen problem. Nothing more can be suggested on this situation until the gun has been taken down to see the inside of the frame. --Dwight

08-08-2005, 08:03 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Danial, If this Kind Woman offering your Son this pistol is not in need of the money and she apparently is not or she wouldn't offer it, I would suggest this offer to her. Tell her you are putting $1000.00 in her name towards your sons college education fund. This should make her doubly happy as she is giving a gift from the heart and at the same time providing something for the future. She gets to give two gifts and be remembered to boot. Just a thought...If she needs the money, pay her the thousand and you got a bargain. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-09-2005, 01:59 AM	#15
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a Pic of the front number http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...ont_number.jpg There are no other marks by the numbers 7923 except the bottom of the barrel under the 7923 is 8,82. I believe the last number of the 8,82 is a 2 the top curl and the bottom line is there but the center section of teh two is not No one seems conserned that the action doesn't stay back. Is it an easy adjustment or fix or doesn't it matter considering everything else. Does the mark on the left side of the gun above the grip affect it's value?

08-09-2005, 02:24 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Daniel, Thanks for the photo of the frame-front serial#, further confirmation of the matching magazine. The mark on the (right side of the gun, I think you mean) is unfortunate, but considering the overall condition of this Luger it detracts very little--my opinion, entirely. The holdopen malfunction is not a matter of lack of concern. It is an imponderable, there is nothing to say about it, until interior of the gun is visible. Is the holdopen broken? missing? or is there possibly some other circumstance? All will be told when it can be seen, and not considerable before. --Dwight

08-09-2005, 05:57 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Holdopen function Daniel, Welcome to the Lugerforum Here is a blueprint image that shows the holdopen device installation location looking down at the grip frame with the upper assembly removed. If you disassemble the top half of the gun from the grip frame, and look down into the grip, you will see the holdopen if it is present in this gun. the holdopen device is operated by the magazine button when the magazine is empty... it pushed up the holdopen to catch the bolt when the last shot is fired or if the toggle is manually pulled all the way back with a functional empty magazine. This function can be seen with the right grip removed. Another reason that the holdopen might not work is that the inside of the wooden grip may be slightly swollen from moisture content or age, and it may impede the magazine button from reaching the full top position to operate the holdopen... If this turns out to be the reason, slighlty relieving the inside of the grip where it bears on the mag button will solve your problem. Please post a photo of the inside top of the frame with the upper receiver removed and we can make a definitive opinion on the status of your holdopen. All of the above is true only with original magazines or magazines that are made to original specifications. Triple-K aftermarket magazines for instance, have non-spec (smaller) mag buttons that will not reliably operate the holdopen. ...and now a word from our sponsor The image posted above was created from the set of Luger blueprints that I sell on CD... This month the CD is 20 percent off the regular price of $25.00 and is only $20.00 postpaid first class mail... If you are interested in purchasing the CD, send me a private message or you can let me know in this thread, or my ad thread at the top of the "For Sale " forum... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-09-2005, 01:43 PM	#18
Danielharp44022 User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John and Dwight: The action does not stay open even with the grip off and using the mag that has a good round button. What ever the reason the hold open pin is not working, how does the fact that it doesn't work effect the functionality of the gun? If it were a shooter could you safely shoot the gun? What effect does a non working hold open pin have on the gun's value? Since I don't own the gun yet removing the upper reciever doesn't seem like a good idea not to mention the fact that I don't have the tool or knowledge to do it. Thanks for your continued comments, I have been taken by the beauty and history of this gun and can well understand the passion you all have for it as collectors. I am a gun owner through my grandfather and father's collection of hunting guns and pistols. They asked that the guns stay in the family and not be sold or traded so I never needed to know thier value. This is my first experience through my young son of a historic or military gun. Daniel

08-09-2005, 03:18 PM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Daniel, A Luger with a non-functional holdopen has no effect on the functionality of the gun, except the action does not stay open after the last round is expended from the magazine. It may be useful for you to know that the P-08 model made from 1908-1914 was manufactured without a holdopen as a cost-saving measure. Most were retrofitted during the course of their military service, evidence that this was an annoyance and a bad idea, not any sort of inherent operational problem. It has no bearing on the safety of the gun to shoot, although many collectors (myself included) would suggest that a Luger in the condition of the one you picture is far too valuable to shoot. There is no way to know what the holdopen problem does to the gun's value until it can be determined -why- it is happening. A broken or missing holdopen (with its potential for ultimately becoming a mismatched part) could have consderable impact on the value of a Luger in marginal condition. In the condition you picture, the effect is only slightly significant--my opinion only. Removing the upper receiver is a simple manual operation requiring no tools. Taking a Luger down to its frame, receiver, toggle-train, firing-pin, and very often grips, is one of the things a serious prospective Luger purchaser expects to be able to do, by permission; and seller expects to have done. --Dwight

08-09-2005, 04:41 PM	#20
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It could also just be cruddy, gummy, dirty and rusty on the inside like most old guns that have been lying around for 50 years, and the old mag springs could be shot. It's just a gun - clean and oil it before attempting to assess functionality. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.