Borchardt

Tony S. · 01-24-2005, 11:00 PM

The gun's bluing is all correct and does not appear to have been mess with. What should I look for other than matching serial numbers and proper markings? What is the estimated value of this gun?
Your assistance is appreciated.
Tony S.

Tony S. · 01-25-2005, 07:22 AM

Thanks for the spelling lesson, it was late.
Tony

John Sabato · 01-25-2005, 10:09 AM

to TAC and all concerned...My manual administrator spelling checker and fixer has been applied to the offending title of the first post...

Tony S. · 01-26-2005, 10:28 AM

Does any one else has a comment about this Borchardt other than the spelling of it? I know that there are a lot of experts in this forum that can help me determine its value and authenticity. Please, share your opinions, I will be extremely thankful.
By the way tacfoley, CLEVER, not celver. you see, we all make mistakes with this spelling stuff.
Thanks again, Tony

John Sabato · 01-26-2005, 11:08 AM

Tony, I think you missed the fact that TAC's British tongue in cheek humor intentionallly mispelled the word "clever"... in his response to me... he's a personal friend of mine... and a highly qualified technical resource to the forum... there are some that don't understand or appreciate his humor, but once you get to know and understand him... he's a hoot.

There are very few Borchardt owners among the forum membership.

Screen Names of some of them that come to mind are:
Albert (Beliard),
Ron Wood,
Lugers Down Under (Murray Willis)
and perhaps Russ (Withem)
...and perhaps some others...

I would do a forum search for "Borchardt", and read up on what has been posted about them. You should identify several others, if not all of the borchardt owners using this technique... you can then inquire using the Private Message feature and invite them to look and comment.

Also, not all members visit every day... I would suggest that you give your post a few more days for responses before you give up...

My only caution to you is that I know that there is some very hot ammunition on the market that is case compatible with the borchardt ammo, but is dangerously too high in pressure... Make sure that any ammo that you might use is designed for the borchardt, and not a later, more modern steel firearm.

Good Luck.

I have no idea what you paid for it, but I wish it were mine!... a functional gun that was the inspiration for the Luger... That is my kind of wall hanger!

Ron Wood · 01-26-2005, 12:14 PM

Tony,

I agree with you, the Borchardt appears to be original in every respect and not "messed with". To my eye, the piece looks reasonably well cared for but it is showing its age. Without actually holding it, I would say that it rates around 90% finish remaining and the straw is mostly gone. It still is a very desirable example, and to find one that has a matching magazine and stock with cheek piece is a real treasure. Tac is probably in the ballpark but perhaps a tad high. I would think that $12,500 to $15,000 might be closer, but in today's market who knows...these things don't grow on trees and the prices are going up every day.

I have a list of known Borchardt serial numbers that was compiled by a very advanced collector, David Eash. I have been adding to it since I received the list and the total now stands at 258. This list includes serial numbers of everything from parts to complete cased sets. This number consists of 158 Loewe examples, and your Borchardt is a number I did not have making a total of 100 DWM pieces.

By the way, forum member Ã¢??unspellableÃ¢?Â asked in an earlier thread Ã¢?Â Why would minor production changes necessarily coincide exactly with the name change from Loewe to DWM. After all, it's the same company and they were coming off the same production line.Ã¢?Â There is an overlap with Loewe and DWM examples intermixed in the very early 1100 serial number range, but I do not know if these early DWM pieces incorporated the minor changes or if they were identical to the Loewe production but with DWM markings. I suspect they had the changes, as I have never seen a DWM that did not.

I hope this helps rather than confuses
Best regards,
Ron

Vlim · 01-26-2005, 12:32 PM

Hi Ron,

Indeed, I wouldn't expect any production changes to be depending on the name change (other than using the new name), especially not in DWM's case.

However, both during 1897 and 1898, several changes were made to the Berlin, Martinikenfelde plant as they started up new production lines and introduced several new products. Mostly ball-bearing production and the new production line for the Maxim machine gun, built under license.

Tony S. · 01-28-2005, 02:15 PM

I can not afford this gun at this time, so the owner has asked me to offer it for sale. I will be listing it in Gunbroker next week. But first, I want Lugerforum members to have a shot at it. I can either put you in contact with owner or you can contact me for specific gun details since the gun is in my possession. The owner is a Colt collector, so he has minimum knowledge of this type of gun (even less than me). His asking price is $17K. It will go for a bit more in Gunbroker. e-mail me at: salmaster@earthlink.net
Thanks for those that helped me with their advice.
Tony S.

Big Norm · 01-31-2005, 01:37 AM

I certainly do not want to challenge either Mr.Tac Foley and most certainly not Mr. Ron Wood. But Mr. Tac Foley is in Europe and not in America. My understanding of prices for this particular weapon is that there is considerable difference in Europe than in America with there being more full sets (holster, stock, case, matching mags and other accessories) in Europe than in America. Tony, you will be selling this gun in America so the American price is more of what you are looking for.(please note that Canadians can own this gun because it is listed as being made before 1895).

Mr Ron Wood is a man who I would hate to get into a debate with because he would win every time. Frankly, he knows more than I do. But I have to say my two cents worth. Your pictures are not great. For the money that you are asking, you can do better. But I do not think that it would be stretching it too much to say that your gun is 90%. I can't see the grip straps and a lot of your pictures are blurred but I THINK (emphasis added with capitals) that there isn't any pitting. But there IS wear.

I can not tell if the mag matches the guns serial number. I also can not tell if the stock and/or the cheek piece has a serial number or if it matches. Of course, there isn't a holster or straps. The missing holster is important because there are many very good reproductions of the stock and the cheek piece but none that I know of of the holster or straps. So if the holster and the straps are missing and the stock is not numbered, then I personally make the assumption that the stock and the cheek piece are reproductions. Another theory that I have to support me is that while the holster and straps are not of the highest qualitity, they lasted a lot longer than the cheek piece. The button on the cheek piece was quite fragile and so, when it broke, it was typically discarded somewhere in its past 110 years of existence. (Its not really a useful accessory).

But my discussion is not what YOU are looking for. So I will cut to the chase and say that your gun is worth about $10-12,000 if you keep the same lousy pictures and lack of description. But, as Ron Wood said, the internet is funny and you might get lucky and actually get $17,000 for your Borchardt. But I would suspect that, at $17,000, it will sit there for a long time. You are talking big bucks here and people are going to be more cautious at spending five figures for a gun at they should not dare shoot.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 01-31-2005, 11:01 AM

Big Norm is reinforcing, perhaps more realistically, my opinion that this Borchardt is not in a condition to fetch premium dollars. However, I will admit that it is always easier to deal down in price than try to raise it.

I am in awe of some of the eBay prices that are going down. There are a couple of guys out there that evidently have deep pockets (and evidently no desire to do their homework) who are buying loads of Luger stuff, a lot of it fake or of poor quality, for big bucks. Even some of the good stuff is going for surprisingly large amounts (triberg's really nice Interarms holster went for over $300, quite a bit more than I would have thought).

By the way, DWM Borchardts do not have serial numbered stocks and cheekpieces. That is one more difference that came about in the change in production.

Big Norm · 01-31-2005, 03:11 PM

Ron,
I can only go by the book. In this case, 'The Luger Book' by John Walter, page 75.

"The practice of numbering accessories to a gun was erratic, particularly during the DWM days ...".

So, while neither of us is totally correct, in this case I would say that you are more correct than me. Of course, this assumes that John Walter is correct. I think I will go someplace and chew a finger nail or two.

But Tony will have to put better pictures on GunBroker and give a better description. I don't see $17,000 for this weapon. People can ask whatever they want for anything. They just don't always get it. Pricing anything is not rocket science, its art. With Borchardts and Lugers you are usually only selling one, so you only need to find one person who is willing to pay the big bucks.
Big Norm

Balder · 01-31-2005, 05:53 PM

LOL tacfoley! I'll be in London March 8th-13th - are you up for a pint or two? (For some reason I always imagine you living in London)

Balder

Tony S. · 01-31-2005, 09:56 PM

Thanks for the recommendations. However, the pictures posted in this site are not as clear as the ones in gunbroker. In addition, I am restricted to the amount of pics and size of files that I can put in gunbroker. I have not mastered the loading of pics yet. Those that are really interested usually ask for more pictures and details, many have done so. I will try to do a better job with my Ã¢??lousyÃ¢?Â pictures and explanations next time. But, I can assure you that the owner of the gun is not going to sell for $10-12K, if so, it would have been in my safe.
The stock and chick piece do not have a serial number, but it is also my understanding that not all were marked with numbers. Is this correct? The magazine is matching to the gun as well as all other parts. And yes, there is no pitting and the gun rates to about 90%. As originally mentioned, I am not to savvy or knowledgeable in this kind of guns, but I am pretty sure that someone interested in it would ask the right questions. That is what I would do anyway. I would be grateful of anyoneÃ¢??s help to write up a better description for it. Hey, donÃ¢??t be so hard on me, I am just another fellow!
Thanks, Tony
Ã¢??SEMPER PARATUSÃ¢?Â

Ron Wood · 02-01-2005, 12:11 AM

Tony,
The pictures on Gunbroker are much clearer, good job. One thing you might want to correct in the ad. DWM production started in the low 1100 serial number range, so this Borchardt is about 800 numbers away from the start rather than 70.

P. J. Heck · 02-08-2005, 02:50 PM

FGS recently sold a Lowe gun in a wooden box with all the gadgets for $19,000. It was a 98% w/clean grip straps and heavy straw......

01-24-2005, 11:00 PM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Borchardt The gun's bluing is all correct and does not appear to have been mess with. What should I look for other than matching serial numbers and proper markings? What is the estimated value of this gun? Your assistance is appreciated. Tony S.

01-25-2005, 10:09 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	to TAC and all concerned...My manual administrator spelling checker and fixer has been applied to the offending title of the first post... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-26-2005, 11:08 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tony, I think you missed the fact that TAC's British tongue in cheek humor intentionallly mispelled the word "clever"... in his response to me... he's a personal friend of mine... and a highly qualified technical resource to the forum... there are some that don't understand or appreciate his humor, but once you get to know and understand him... he's a hoot. There are very few Borchardt owners among the forum membership. Screen Names of some of them that come to mind are: Albert (Beliard), Ron Wood, Lugers Down Under (Murray Willis) and perhaps Russ (Withem) ...and perhaps some others... I would do a forum search for "Borchardt", and read up on what has been posted about them. You should identify several others, if not all of the borchardt owners using this technique... you can then inquire using the Private Message feature and invite them to look and comment. Also, not all members visit every day... I would suggest that you give your post a few more days for responses before you give up... My only caution to you is that I know that there is some very hot ammunition on the market that is case compatible with the borchardt ammo, but is dangerously too high in pressure... Make sure that any ammo that you might use is designed for the borchardt, and not a later, more modern steel firearm. Good Luck. I have no idea what you paid for it, but I wish it were mine!... a functional gun that was the inspiration for the Luger... That is my kind of wall hanger! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-26-2005, 12:14 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Tony, I agree with you, the Borchardt appears to be original in every respect and not "messed with". To my eye, the piece looks reasonably well cared for but it is showing its age. Without actually holding it, I would say that it rates around 90% finish remaining and the straw is mostly gone. It still is a very desirable example, and to find one that has a matching magazine and stock with cheek piece is a real treasure. Tac is probably in the ballpark but perhaps a tad high. I would think that $12,500 to $15,000 might be closer, but in today's market who knows...these things don't grow on trees and the prices are going up every day. I have a list of known Borchardt serial numbers that was compiled by a very advanced collector, David Eash. I have been adding to it since I received the list and the total now stands at 258. This list includes serial numbers of everything from parts to complete cased sets. This number consists of 158 Loewe examples, and your Borchardt is a number I did not have making a total of 100 DWM pieces. By the way, forum member Ã¢??unspellableÃ¢?Â asked in an earlier thread Ã¢?Â Why would minor production changes necessarily coincide exactly with the name change from Loewe to DWM. After all, it's the same company and they were coming off the same production line.Ã¢?Â There is an overlap with Loewe and DWM examples intermixed in the very early 1100 serial number range, but I do not know if these early DWM pieces incorporated the minor changes or if they were identical to the Loewe production but with DWM markings. I suspect they had the changes, as I have never seen a DWM that did not. I hope this helps rather than confuses Best regards, Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-31-2005, 11:01 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Big Norm is reinforcing, perhaps more realistically, my opinion that this Borchardt is not in a condition to fetch premium dollars. However, I will admit that it is always easier to deal down in price than try to raise it. I am in awe of some of the eBay prices that are going down. There are a couple of guys out there that evidently have deep pockets (and evidently no desire to do their homework) who are buying loads of Luger stuff, a lot of it fake or of poor quality, for big bucks. Even some of the good stuff is going for surprisingly large amounts (triberg's really nice Interarms holster went for over $300, quite a bit more than I would have thought). By the way, DWM Borchardts do not have serial numbered stocks and cheekpieces. That is one more difference that came about in the change in production. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-25-2005, 07:22 AM	#2
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the spelling lesson, it was late. Tony

01-26-2005, 10:28 AM	#4
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Does any one else has a comment about this Borchardt other than the spelling of it? I know that there are a lot of experts in this forum that can help me determine its value and authenticity. Please, share your opinions, I will be extremely thankful. By the way tacfoley, CLEVER, not celver. you see, we all make mistakes with this spelling stuff. Thanks again, Tony

01-26-2005, 12:32 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,930 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi Ron, Indeed, I wouldn't expect any production changes to be depending on the name change (other than using the new name), especially not in DWM's case. However, both during 1897 and 1898, several changes were made to the Berlin, Martinikenfelde plant as they started up new production lines and introduced several new products. Mostly ball-bearing production and the new production line for the Maxim machine gun, built under license.

01-28-2005, 02:15 PM	#8
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I can not afford this gun at this time, so the owner has asked me to offer it for sale. I will be listing it in Gunbroker next week. But first, I want Lugerforum members to have a shot at it. I can either put you in contact with owner or you can contact me for specific gun details since the gun is in my possession. The owner is a Colt collector, so he has minimum knowledge of this type of gun (even less than me). His asking price is $17K. It will go for a bit more in Gunbroker. e-mail me at: salmaster@earthlink.net Thanks for those that helped me with their advice. Tony S.

01-31-2005, 01:37 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I certainly do not want to challenge either Mr.Tac Foley and most certainly not Mr. Ron Wood. But Mr. Tac Foley is in Europe and not in America. My understanding of prices for this particular weapon is that there is considerable difference in Europe than in America with there being more full sets (holster, stock, case, matching mags and other accessories) in Europe than in America. Tony, you will be selling this gun in America so the American price is more of what you are looking for.(please note that Canadians can own this gun because it is listed as being made before 1895). Mr Ron Wood is a man who I would hate to get into a debate with because he would win every time. Frankly, he knows more than I do. But I have to say my two cents worth. Your pictures are not great. For the money that you are asking, you can do better. But I do not think that it would be stretching it too much to say that your gun is 90%. I can't see the grip straps and a lot of your pictures are blurred but I THINK (emphasis added with capitals) that there isn't any pitting. But there IS wear. I can not tell if the mag matches the guns serial number. I also can not tell if the stock and/or the cheek piece has a serial number or if it matches. Of course, there isn't a holster or straps. The missing holster is important because there are many very good reproductions of the stock and the cheek piece but none that I know of of the holster or straps. So if the holster and the straps are missing and the stock is not numbered, then I personally make the assumption that the stock and the cheek piece are reproductions. Another theory that I have to support me is that while the holster and straps are not of the highest qualitity, they lasted a lot longer than the cheek piece. The button on the cheek piece was quite fragile and so, when it broke, it was typically discarded somewhere in its past 110 years of existence. (Its not really a useful accessory). But my discussion is not what YOU are looking for. So I will cut to the chase and say that your gun is worth about $10-12,000 if you keep the same lousy pictures and lack of description. But, as Ron Wood said, the internet is funny and you might get lucky and actually get $17,000 for your Borchardt. But I would suspect that, at $17,000, it will sit there for a long time. You are talking big bucks here and people are going to be more cautious at spending five figures for a gun at they should not dare shoot. Big Norm

01-31-2005, 03:11 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, I can only go by the book. In this case, 'The Luger Book' by John Walter, page 75. "The practice of numbering accessories to a gun was erratic, particularly during the DWM days ...". So, while neither of us is totally correct, in this case I would say that you are more correct than me. Of course, this assumes that John Walter is correct. I think I will go someplace and chew a finger nail or two. But Tony will have to put better pictures on GunBroker and give a better description. I don't see $17,000 for this weapon. People can ask whatever they want for anything. They just don't always get it. Pricing anything is not rocket science, its art. With Borchardts and Lugers you are usually only selling one, so you only need to find one person who is willing to pay the big bucks. Big Norm

01-31-2005, 05:53 PM	#12
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	LOL tacfoley! I'll be in London March 8th-13th - are you up for a pint or two? (For some reason I always imagine you living in London) Balder

01-31-2005, 09:56 PM	#13
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the recommendations. However, the pictures posted in this site are not as clear as the ones in gunbroker. In addition, I am restricted to the amount of pics and size of files that I can put in gunbroker. I have not mastered the loading of pics yet. Those that are really interested usually ask for more pictures and details, many have done so. I will try to do a better job with my Ã¢??lousyÃ¢?Â pictures and explanations next time. But, I can assure you that the owner of the gun is not going to sell for $10-12K, if so, it would have been in my safe. The stock and chick piece do not have a serial number, but it is also my understanding that not all were marked with numbers. Is this correct? The magazine is matching to the gun as well as all other parts. And yes, there is no pitting and the gun rates to about 90%. As originally mentioned, I am not to savvy or knowledgeable in this kind of guns, but I am pretty sure that someone interested in it would ask the right questions. That is what I would do anyway. I would be grateful of anyoneÃ¢??s help to write up a better description for it. Hey, donÃ¢??t be so hard on me, I am just another fellow! Thanks, Tony Ã¢??SEMPER PARATUSÃ¢?Â

02-01-2005, 12:11 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Tony, The pictures on Gunbroker are much clearer, good job. One thing you might want to correct in the ad. DWM production started in the low 1100 serial number range, so this Borchardt is about 800 numbers away from the start rather than 70. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-08-2005, 02:50 PM	#15
P. J. Heck User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	FGS recently sold a Lowe gun in a wooden box with all the gadgets for $19,000. It was a 98% w/clean grip straps and heavy straw...... __________________ There are no bad guns!