Chamber proofs on a 1916 navy

MIKE MORRIS · 03-15-2004, 12:00 PM

Any help from forum members on what country these proofs are. Thanks Mike Morris

John Sabato · 03-15-2004, 12:42 PM

Mike sent me this photo to post for him...

Pete Ebbink · 03-15-2004, 01:42 PM

Hello Mike,

I think a Belgian collector is behind this web site...Alain D.

http://www.littlegun.be/

You might email him your photos to see if he might confirm the Belgium-origins...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 03-16-2004, 06:03 PM

Mike has posted a couple more pictures of his mystery Navy Luger on his website and asked me to copy them here in this thread. I have cropped his pictures a bit to zero in on the markings.

(I wonder if it might be Siamese?)

Dwight Gruber · 03-16-2004, 10:01 PM

Ron,

I'm not coming up with a reference for the mark, but I did run into a comment (Walter, 1991) that Siamese Lugers are mostly 4", some LP-08, all of them 1936 Mausers with C/U proofs.

--Dwight

Navy · 03-16-2004, 10:16 PM

All,

I have seen, disassembled and gone over this gun thoroughly.

My *guess* and it is only a guess, as I can find nothing to back it up, is that this proof is a "secondary" proof, applied by some government entity for foreign manufactured weapons.

As Belgium was a significant colonial power during the latter part of the 19th and first part of the 20th Century, it is not beyond a reasonable speculation that this gun was acquired by Belgian forces in a foreign area of operations

(Africa, where Belgium had the Congo, and Germany had a great deal of West Africa -Remember "Last Voyage of the African Queen" with Bogey and Kate?)

and given a secondary proof by a colonial armory.

Granted, this is pure speculation, however I will ask the group for a better theory.

Cheers,
Tom A.

Ron Wood · 03-16-2004, 10:19 PM

Dwight,
I can't find the mark either. It is just something about the mark on the left side of the Luger that struck me as looking similar to a Siamese character. Could be just an underlined "c". Probably way off base, but it seemed worth mentioning.

Pete Ebbink · 03-16-2004, 11:25 PM

From the G. Wirnsberger book, "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" on page 128 :

Sorry...could not find anything on the "c/underline" mark...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 03-17-2004, 01:31 AM

BINGO! Good going Pete.

PAOLO · 03-17-2004, 02:26 AM

Only for adding that this in a civilian Belgian Proof House mark,so the mark was stamped when the gun was imported in the Belgian Country for commercial purpose.

PAOLO · 03-17-2004, 02:28 AM

Again,it's an L for Liege.

Vlim · 03-17-2004, 07:03 AM

Excellent work Pete!

I had a look at the Belgian proof marks I knew of and they did not fit the standard ELG Belgian proofs I had seen before (which now is logical, since they appearantly used a different proof for non-belgian weapons). And since Belgium has a healthy fire-arms industry, not a lot of imports into Belgium are seen.

This means that Mike's Navy indeed spent some time in Belgium, again not illogical since half of Germany camped in their backyards during WW1 and they were forced to leave tons of material behind. These ex-WW1 guns ended up on local European markets, and a number of them were even offered for sale to the Dutch goverment. The Dutch homeguard and some police forces used some of these WW1 capture pieces.

Pete: Got an ISBN of that book?

George Anderson · 03-17-2004, 08:20 AM

I have a photo of a group of Belgian soldiers sporting Kratchen, EK's and other German uniform elements and holding P08's and P04 variations. I can't post the photo here but will forward it to someone to post.

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2004, 09:14 AM

George, I can post it for you, but if you can send it (e-mail it), you should be able to post it here?

Ed

MIKE MORRIS · 03-17-2004, 09:19 AM

I want to thank all you guys for taking the time to research my navy proof mark. Pete, you did a great job !! My thanks to you ! A qustion still remaing though is that funny looking stamp on the lh frame behind the 24. That's the one Ron said it looks like a Siamese proofs. Could it be like a previous post said, a police proof of some country ? Again, many thanks guys.......Mike
PS..I'm working on the list of serial numbers that that I have some history on, ie. purchase affidavits from vetrans, descriptions of, import papers, or research material. I will have to copy it to microsoft word and send it to my e-mail folder to be forwarded to interested members. It's too long to post to the forum. I should have it ready by the end of the week. Example is a copy of the US test trials of the Borchardt, Borchardt serial #'s 633 and 1019. 1019 had under the barrell " For Ely cartidge only ", and capture papers which are free to the owners of the appropiate guns, etc., etc. Hoping all this will help the Forum community.

Pete Ebbink · 03-17-2004, 10:52 AM

Hello Gerben,

The ISBN number is : 0-89149-006-X

And here is a book seller that has some in stock :

http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=pkNyQLP5

Just add the author's name into the "search" window...

Hello Mike,

Glad I could be of help...just fortunate enough to have picked up this little book...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 03-17-2004, 03:59 PM

Ed, I emailed you the photo.

Admin and here it is:
Belgians with German Battlefield Loot

luger11 · 03-17-2004, 06:17 PM

John.if you will send me your email address again so you can assist me in uploading a pic. I have a 06 Siamiese with the Siamiese Gouv. mark, it looks very similar to the mark in question.

Leo

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2004, 06:46 PM

George, Now i see where I can add the picture, so added it here and started a new thread. Maybe others would like to post pictures like it?

Evan Duke · 03-18-2004, 12:02 AM

Mike, I believe that you will find that the reason for the belgian proofs on the barrel and receiver of the Luger is ,that the gun was submited by the mfgr.(DWM) for test fireing in a Belgian weapons inspectors vacility to make sure that the weapon did in fact meet the specifications of the manufacturers suggested amunition load. This was common practice for the German, English, French, and Italian mfgrs.to send weapons for testing, as Belgium was recognized as the fore most European testing house. Another common stamp found on firearms to indicate the same process is the flaming ball with the elg initials inside of it.

03-15-2004, 12:00 PM	#1
MIKE MORRIS User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: BULVERDE, TEXAS Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Chamber proofs on a 1916 navy Any help from forum members on what country these proofs are. Thanks Mike Morris __________________ MIKE MORRIS

03-15-2004, 12:42 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Mike sent me this photo to post for him... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-16-2004, 06:03 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Mike has posted a couple more pictures of his mystery Navy Luger on his website and asked me to copy them here in this thread. I have cropped his pictures a bit to zero in on the markings. (I wonder if it might be Siamese?) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-16-2004, 10:19 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Dwight, I can't find the mark either. It is just something about the mark on the left side of the Luger that struck me as looking similar to a Siamese character. Could be just an underlined "c". Probably way off base, but it seemed worth mentioning. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-17-2004, 01:31 AM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	BINGO! Good going Pete. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-15-2004, 01:42 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Mike, I think a Belgian collector is behind this web site...Alain D. http://www.littlegun.be/ You might email him your photos to see if he might confirm the Belgium-origins...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-16-2004, 10:01 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Ron, I'm not coming up with a reference for the mark, but I did run into a comment (Walter, 1991) that Siamese Lugers are mostly 4", some LP-08, all of them 1936 Mausers with C/U proofs. --Dwight

03-16-2004, 10:16 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, I have seen, disassembled and gone over this gun thoroughly. My guess and it is only a guess, as I can find nothing to back it up, is that this proof is a "secondary" proof, applied by some government entity for foreign manufactured weapons. As Belgium was a significant colonial power during the latter part of the 19th and first part of the 20th Century, it is not beyond a reasonable speculation that this gun was acquired by Belgian forces in a foreign area of operations (Africa, where Belgium had the Congo, and Germany had a great deal of West Africa -Remember "Last Voyage of the African Queen" with Bogey and Kate?) and given a secondary proof by a colonial armory. Granted, this is pure speculation, however I will ask the group for a better theory. Cheers, Tom A.

03-16-2004, 11:25 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	From the G. Wirnsberger book, "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" on page 128 : Sorry...could not find anything on the "c/underline" mark... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-17-2004, 02:26 AM	#10
PAOLO User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cremona, Italy Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Only for adding that this in a civilian Belgian Proof House mark,so the mark was stamped when the gun was imported in the Belgian Country for commercial purpose. __________________ PAOLO

03-17-2004, 02:28 AM	#11
PAOLO User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cremona, Italy Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Again,it's an L for Liege. __________________ PAOLO

03-17-2004, 07:03 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	Excellent work Pete! I had a look at the Belgian proof marks I knew of and they did not fit the standard ELG Belgian proofs I had seen before (which now is logical, since they appearantly used a different proof for non-belgian weapons). And since Belgium has a healthy fire-arms industry, not a lot of imports into Belgium are seen. This means that Mike's Navy indeed spent some time in Belgium, again not illogical since half of Germany camped in their backyards during WW1 and they were forced to leave tons of material behind. These ex-WW1 guns ended up on local European markets, and a number of them were even offered for sale to the Dutch goverment. The Dutch homeguard and some police forces used some of these WW1 capture pieces. Pete: Got an ISBN of that book?

03-17-2004, 08:20 AM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have a photo of a group of Belgian soldiers sporting Kratchen, EK's and other German uniform elements and holding P08's and P04 variations. I can't post the photo here but will forward it to someone to post.

03-17-2004, 09:14 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	George, I can post it for you, but if you can send it (e-mail it), you should be able to post it here? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-17-2004, 09:19 AM	#15
MIKE MORRIS User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: BULVERDE, TEXAS Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I want to thank all you guys for taking the time to research my navy proof mark. Pete, you did a great job !! My thanks to you ! A qustion still remaing though is that funny looking stamp on the lh frame behind the 24. That's the one Ron said it looks like a Siamese proofs. Could it be like a previous post said, a police proof of some country ? Again, many thanks guys.......Mike PS..I'm working on the list of serial numbers that that I have some history on, ie. purchase affidavits from vetrans, descriptions of, import papers, or research material. I will have to copy it to microsoft word and send it to my e-mail folder to be forwarded to interested members. It's too long to post to the forum. I should have it ready by the end of the week. Example is a copy of the US test trials of the Borchardt, Borchardt serial #'s 633 and 1019. 1019 had under the barrell " For Ely cartidge only ", and capture papers which are free to the owners of the appropiate guns, etc., etc. Hoping all this will help the Forum community. __________________ MIKE MORRIS

03-17-2004, 10:52 AM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Gerben, The ISBN number is : 0-89149-006-X And here is a book seller that has some in stock : http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=pkNyQLP5 Just add the author's name into the "search" window... Hello Mike, Glad I could be of help...just fortunate enough to have picked up this little book... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-17-2004, 03:59 PM	#17
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Ed, I emailed you the photo. Admin and here it is: Belgians with German Battlefield Loot

03-17-2004, 06:17 PM	#18
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John.if you will send me your email address again so you can assist me in uploading a pic. I have a 06 Siamiese with the Siamiese Gouv. mark, it looks very similar to the mark in question. Leo

03-17-2004, 06:46 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	George, Now i see where I can add the picture, so added it here and started a new thread. Maybe others would like to post pictures like it? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-18-2004, 12:02 AM	#20
Evan Duke User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 52 Thanks: 2 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Mike, I believe that you will find that the reason for the belgian proofs on the barrel and receiver of the Luger is ,that the gun was submited by the mfgr.(DWM) for test fireing in a Belgian weapons inspectors vacility to make sure that the weapon did in fact meet the specifications of the manufacturers suggested amunition load. This was common practice for the German, English, French, and Italian mfgrs.to send weapons for testing, as Belgium was recognized as the fore most European testing house. Another common stamp found on firearms to indicate the same process is the flaming ball with the elg initials inside of it.