Chamber proofs on a 1916 navy
 

Any help from forum members on what country these proofs are. Thanks Mike Morris

Mike sent me this photo to post for him...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...que_proofs.jpg

Hello Mike,

I think a Belgian collector is behind this web site...Alain D.

http://www.littlegun.be/

You might email him your photos to see if he might confirm the Belgium-origins...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Mike has posted a couple more pictures of his mystery Navy Luger on his website and asked me to copy them here in this thread. I have cropped his pictures a bit to zero in on the markings.

(I wonder if it might be Siamese?)

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...mber_proof.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...de_marking.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...le_marking.jpg

Ron,

I'm not coming up with a reference for the mark, but I did run into a comment (Walter, 1991) that Siamese Lugers are mostly 4", some LP-08, all of them 1936 Mausers with C/U proofs.

--Dwight

All,

I have seen, disassembled and gone over this gun thoroughly.

My *guess* and it is only a guess, as I can find nothing to back it up, is that this proof is a "secondary" proof, applied by some government entity for foreign manufactured weapons.

As Belgium was a significant colonial power during the latter part of the 19th and first part of the 20th Century, it is not beyond a reasonable speculation that this gun was acquired by Belgian forces in a foreign area of operations

(Africa, where Belgium had the Congo, and Germany had a great deal of West Africa -Remember "Last Voyage of the African Queen" with Bogey and Kate?)

and given a secondary proof by a colonial armory.

Granted, this is pure speculation, however I will ask the group for a better theory.

Cheers,
Tom A.

Dwight,
I can't find the mark either. It is just something about the mark on the left side of the Luger that struck me as looking similar to a Siamese character. Could be just an underlined "c". Probably way off base, but it seemed worth mentioning.

From the G. Wirnsberger book, "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" on page 128 :

Sorry...could not find anything on the "c/underline" mark...

http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/belgian_proof.jpg

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

BINGO! Good going Pete.

Only for adding that this in a civilian Belgian Proof House mark,so the mark was stamped when the gun was imported in the Belgian Country for commercial purpose.

Again,it's an L for Liege.

Excellent work Pete!

I had a look at the Belgian proof marks I knew of and they did not fit the standard ELG Belgian proofs I had seen before (which now is logical, since they appearantly used a different proof for non-belgian weapons). And since Belgium has a healthy fire-arms industry, not a lot of imports into Belgium are seen.

This means that Mike's Navy indeed spent some time in Belgium, again not illogical since half of Germany camped in their backyards during WW1 and they were forced to leave tons of material behind. These ex-WW1 guns ended up on local European markets, and a number of them were even offered for sale to the Dutch goverment. The Dutch homeguard and some police forces used some of these WW1 capture pieces.

Pete: Got an ISBN of that book?

I have a photo of a group of Belgian soldiers sporting Kratchen, EK's and other German uniform elements and holding P08's and P04 variations. I can't post the photo here but will forward it to someone to post.

George, I can post it for you, but if you can send it (e-mail it), you should be able to post it here?

Ed

I want to thank all you guys for taking the time to research my navy proof mark. Pete, you did a great job !! My thanks to you ! A qustion still remaing though is that funny looking stamp on the lh frame behind the 24. That's the one Ron said it looks like a Siamese proofs. Could it be like a previous post said, a police proof of some country ? Again, many thanks guys.......Mike
PS..I'm working on the list of serial numbers that that I have some history on, ie. purchase affidavits from vetrans, descriptions of, import papers, or research material. I will have to copy it to microsoft word and send it to my e-mail folder to be forwarded to interested members. It's too long to post to the forum. I should have it ready by the end of the week. Example is a copy of the US test trials of the Borchardt, Borchardt serial #'s 633 and 1019. 1019 had under the barrell " For Ely cartidge only ", and capture papers which are free to the owners of the appropiate guns, etc., etc. Hoping all this will help the Forum community.

Hello Gerben,

The ISBN number is : 0-89149-006-X

And here is a book seller that has some in stock :

http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cg...ml?id=pkNyQLP5

Just add the author's name into the "search" window...

Hello Mike,

Glad I could be of help...just fortunate enough to have picked up this little book...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ed, I emailed you the photo.

Admin and here it is:
Belgians with German Battlefield Loot
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/belgians.jpg

John.if you will send me your email address again so you can assist me in uploading a pic. I have a 06 Siamiese with the Siamiese Gouv. mark, it looks very similar to the mark in question.

Leo

George, Now i see where I can add the picture, so added it here and started a new thread. Maybe others would like to post pictures like it?

:)

Mike, I believe that you will find that the reason for the belgian proofs on the barrel and receiver of the Luger is ,that the gun was submited by the mfgr.(DWM) for test fireing in a Belgian weapons inspectors vacility to make sure that the weapon did in fact meet the specifications of the manufacturers suggested amunition load. This was common practice for the German, English, French, and Italian mfgrs.to send weapons for testing, as Belgium was recognized as the fore most European testing house. Another common stamp found on firearms to indicate the same process is the flaming ball with the elg initials inside of it.