Chamber proofs on a 1916 navy - Page 2

Vlim · 03-18-2004, 08:16 AM

Hi,

I doubt that DWM bothered to send a luger to be tested in Belgium during WW1. DWM even had a large interest (partial ownership) in Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium and expected to continue producing arms at the FN plant after the Germans invaded Belgium in 1914.

The Belgians downright refused to produce for Germany and DWM shipped out the FN production machinery to Germany so production (mainly of the K98, which FN made in license) would continue there. FN was reduced to a material repair shop (mainly bikes and vehicles) until their machinery were returned in 1919.

DWM were quite crossed that they had to hand over 'their' machinery to the allies in 1919, since they had virtually complete ownership of these machines because of their considerate financial interest in FN. They also lost their FN shares as a result of the Versailles treaty, along with ownership of several other foreign companies, like a French ballbearing factory they had set up there.

Moveover, DWM's test equipment was rated as the best possible in those days and DWM produced and sold production and testing equipment to several countries. DWM did not need, in any way, the assistance of other countries for testing.

George Anderson · 03-18-2004, 08:27 AM

Evan Duke, were this a 1906 type Navy or a prototype there could be some very thin chance of your idea being correct but it is a 1916 dated Navy. In that year relationships between the Germans and Belgians were strained at best as German troops had overrun almost all of Belgium in 1914 and were still in occupation. I seriously doubt that the Germans were asking the Belgians to proof their weapons for them.

The subject pistol, like so many we see with British proofs, was in all likelihood a war trophy subsequently proofed by the Belgians as may have been required by their laws. I believe that Navy Matrosen units were heavily involved along the channel coast in Belgium.

Vlim · 03-18-2004, 08:34 AM

George,

You are correct. The main Belgian ports were probably stuffed with German vessals that were neatly impounded after the Germans surrendered.

About DWM's testing abilities:
Here is a very rare picture of a K98 being measured at DWM (somewhere between the wars).

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Pete Ebbink · 03-18-2004, 02:29 PM

Hello Ron,

Here is a jpeg of some siamese markings I picked up on the Horst-Held web site...

Thought it might help your line of thinking on the other markings...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

ViggoG · 03-18-2004, 10:54 PM

John S and Pete,
Another of the Flaming Bomb Proofs that keep coming out of the woodwork !
Pete, Thanks for the research !
John S, Do you think that there is a place for this with the others ?
They keep showing up on Lugers from all over, will this qualify them as an item worthy of entry in the proof marks section ?
ViggoG

John Sabato · 03-18-2004, 11:13 PM

I agree Viggo. This one belongs in the tech info section too.

03-18-2004, 11:13 PM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I agree Viggo. This one belongs in the tech info section too. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-18-2004, 08:16 AM	#21
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	Hi, I doubt that DWM bothered to send a luger to be tested in Belgium during WW1. DWM even had a large interest (partial ownership) in Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium and expected to continue producing arms at the FN plant after the Germans invaded Belgium in 1914. The Belgians downright refused to produce for Germany and DWM shipped out the FN production machinery to Germany so production (mainly of the K98, which FN made in license) would continue there. FN was reduced to a material repair shop (mainly bikes and vehicles) until their machinery were returned in 1919. DWM were quite crossed that they had to hand over 'their' machinery to the allies in 1919, since they had virtually complete ownership of these machines because of their considerate financial interest in FN. They also lost their FN shares as a result of the Versailles treaty, along with ownership of several other foreign companies, like a French ballbearing factory they had set up there. Moveover, DWM's test equipment was rated as the best possible in those days and DWM produced and sold production and testing equipment to several countries. DWM did not need, in any way, the assistance of other countries for testing.

03-18-2004, 08:27 AM	#22
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Evan Duke, were this a 1906 type Navy or a prototype there could be some very thin chance of your idea being correct but it is a 1916 dated Navy. In that year relationships between the Germans and Belgians were strained at best as German troops had overrun almost all of Belgium in 1914 and were still in occupation. I seriously doubt that the Germans were asking the Belgians to proof their weapons for them. The subject pistol, like so many we see with British proofs, was in all likelihood a war trophy subsequently proofed by the Belgians as may have been required by their laws. I believe that Navy Matrosen units were heavily involved along the channel coast in Belgium.

03-18-2004, 08:34 AM	#23
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	George, You are correct. The main Belgian ports were probably stuffed with German vessals that were neatly impounded after the Germans surrendered. About DWM's testing abilities: Here is a very rare picture of a K98 being measured at DWM (somewhere between the wars). <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/measuringk98dwm1939.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

03-18-2004, 02:29 PM	#24
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, Here is a jpeg of some siamese markings I picked up on the Horst-Held web site... Thought it might help your line of thinking on the other markings... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

03-18-2004, 10:54 PM	#25
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John S and Pete, Another of the Flaming Bomb Proofs that keep coming out of the woodwork ! Pete, Thanks for the research ! John S, Do you think that there is a place for this with the others ? They keep showing up on Lugers from all over, will this qualify them as an item worthy of entry in the proof marks section ? ViggoG