.45 ACP/Shanxi Type 17 Broomhandle

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

When have time, could you post pictures of this original SHANSEI? Both sides. If have grip frame internal, that will be great. Thanks!

I second Alvin's request!

A dedicated Shansei thread with numerous photos would be most appreciated!

[conehammer]

Originally Posted by alvin

TWhy did new Shansei have a 11.43x26mm chamber being a myth.

Where did this original information come from? Who determined that the chamber measure out to a 11.43x 26?

If the importer didn't want to allow people to fire them why not the more scarce 11.60x18 October Revolution? I mean any imaginary cartridge would be just as esoteric, right? Why make the chamber close enough for owners to get in trouble?? Has any of us owners made a chamber cast to confirm the caliber?

I might do one if I can find my low temp alloy.

It seems to me that if the chamber is 26mm instead of 23mm
a standard 45 acp round should never fire so what about all the accounts of firing 'tests' I've seen??

Something doesn't quite line up folks.

Jerry

[alvin]

Originally Posted by conehammer

It seems to me that if the chamber is 26mm instead of 23mm a standard 45 acp round should never fire so what about all the accounts of firing 'tests' I've seen??

Something doesn't quite line up folks.

It's a good point.

Even with very wrong headspace, say, 3mm longer, the gun could still fire -- the extractor holds the cartridge in place so it would not fall deep into chamber -- It will not fire reliably, but using long chamber to prevent firing definitely won't be very effective. So the theory does have a serious hole.

[Paladinpainter]

I've had a chance to tinker with a number of the .45s. One out of nine had proper head space; all the rest were excessive by about 1mm. They will fire, as Alvin says, by virtue of the extractor's hold on the rim of the cartridge. Correcting excessive head space is not an easy fix, but head space isnt as critical with a straight walled cartridge as one with a bottle neck.
All that said, they are a hoot to take to the range and will gather a small crowd of on-lookers. I will admit, however, to a little queasy feeling each time I press the trigger.
John

[alvin]

I tried inserting 7.63x25, 9x19, and 9x25 cartridge into a 7.63mm pistol, also tried inserting these three type of cartridge into a 9x25mm pistol.

The only combination that definitely won't fire is 9x25 cartridge in 7.63mm pistol because the bolt cannot close. All others.. even with wrong cartridge, they will load and fire (firing wrong cartridge will damage the gun after a few rounds -- don't try it on collectible).

[alvin]

For completeness, also tried inserting 7.63x25, 9x19 and 9x25 cartridge into a "Red 9" pistol. Obviously, 7.63x25 and 9x19 cartridge can be loaded and fired from it. 9x25 cartridge won't load and fire, the bolt cannot close with cartridge case protruding out so much. That would explain why there was no need to add a "9" on grip panels when 9x25mm pistol appeared in prewar era -- 9x25 cartridge won't load into 7.63mm nor 9mm pistol.

7.63mm and 9x19 cartridge could be loaded into 9x25 pistol, but it's OK to fire a relatively weaker 9x19 cartridge from a 9x25 pistol. And, how about firing 7.63mm cartridge from a 9x25mm pistol?? the feeling must like firing a pistol with "shoot-out" bore... we have experience on target impact keyholes, but the chamber pressure is OK.

The worst combination is firing 9x19mm cartridge from a 7.63mm pistol. Chamber pressure is super high. So, a big Red "9" on panels could help.

[Sergio Natali]

Richard & Alvin

Ok I'll try to take some pictures of my Shansei then I'll post them.

Sergio

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

...when 9x25mm pistol appeared in prewar era -- 9x25 cartridge won't load into 7.63mm nor 9mm pistol.

Just to be clear - You're talking about "Mauser Export" 9mm cartridge??? The DWM #487 cartridge??? From about 1908...No relation to 9mm Parabellum or 9x21...

I have never seen one in actuality; only pictures & descriptions in COTW.

As to 9x21, I would have no problem handloading this cartridge. A cut-down 38ACP/38 Super cartridge can be made to work. Loaded to 9mm Parabellum specs & bullets. Run through 9mm "Luger" dies, bullet seated deeper to 1.173" OAL...

Some pictures here of 9x21 Artillery Luger & C96 Mauser are to my mind as good as 9x19; even better in case of Persian Artillery shown by Sergio...I wish I could have had it...

[alvin]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Just to be clear - You're talking about "Mauser Export" 9mm cartridge??? The DWM #487 cartridge??? From about 1908...No relation to 9mm Parabellum or 9x21..

That's right. 9x25 Mauser Export (DWM 487). When did this cartridge appear was not clear... Julia Auction sold an engraved instance of 9x25 pistol from Sturgess collection, the pistol was supposed to be around 1904. So, I would think this powerful cartridge appeared in 1904, or slightly earlier.

But I did make a mistake. The "9x25 cartridge" in illustration was wrong. It's not 9x25, it's a much more common 9x23mm Largo cartridge (saw it longer in drawer and forgot it's 9x23, not 9x25, I don't have 9x25 ammo yet ). But that should not change above chamber fitness. 9mm Mauser Export case is 2mm longer than 9mm Largo -- 9mm Largo cartridge does not fit 7.63mm or 9x19mm pistol, larger 9mm Mauser Export cartridge won't fit them either.

[Paladinpainter]

In the interest of science, I did a chamber cast of my Type 17. The face of the bolt is recessed .048"; the chamber from where the bolt would rest (see dark line) to the mouth of the cartridge is .860 for a total of .908". The diameter of the chamber immediately forward of the extractor cut is .482" and at the mouth .474-.475".
My Speer #9 manual shows the 45acp cartridge length as .898; the diameter at the mouth of .473" and at the web of .476". So on my gun at least, the chamber is reasonable for a military weapon. I've seen others that would swallow a No-Go gauge and still have a 1/16th inch gap between the bolt and cartridge head.
I put a C96 Wolff spring kit, a new extractor, and a modern, heat treated bolt stop on my Type 17. For the 20 or so rounds I fire per year, the gun seems to be holding up just fine.
John

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Paladinpainter

In the interest of science, I did a chamber cast of my Type 17... I put a ...modern heat treated bolt stop on my Type 17...

I've never done a chamber cast...But where did you get your modern heat treated bolt stop???

[TheRomanhistorian]

Are those the bolt stops from KB Tactical? I've a few from them on my 7.63 Brooms and my one 9mm Broom. I'm still going to have to think about a Shansei broom. I got offered a pre-war commercial with original rifling for $800 (with 2 boxes of ammo, cleaning tool, and three stripper clips) and a few Lugers so...there goes my Christmas money (figuratively).

[Paladinpainter]

The bolt stop was made by a local machinist. He's tackled some strange projects for me. Michael, that commercial C96, sounds like too good a deal to pass up.
John

[Paladinpainter]

Good Evening,

While reading an article about a .45 Luger Carbine on the other board, I came across mention of the early production of a .45 cartridge by the Frankford Arsenal that was " 1mm" longer - the .45 F.A. 4-06. It seems that of the 10,000 or so rounds produced, about half ended up in Germany and about half of those are unaccounted for.

So, there seems to be some basis for the existence of a longer .45 auto cartridge.

John

[alvin]

The caliber of .45ACP broomhandle definitely needs more study. There was a background. Original Shansei C96 was made by a warlord arsenal (in Shansei, of course). The warlord was a regiment commander in Qing Dynasty (1644-1912), setup his 'kingdom' in warlord years, lost Shansei province in 1949 and fled to Taiwan, finally died there. Many warlord power of the period did not survive that long, but he did. There was something special about this man. For example, the railway he built was narrower than standard. It was done intentionally. Probably learned from Russian.

The arsenal made C96 was not small. Taiyuan Arsenal was one of the three bigger arsenals in China at that time. They also made lots of Thompson-like 11.43mm submachine guns. In warlord years, warlords did not save money on guns, 80% of budget could be spent on weapons (otherwise, how could poor Chinese buy so many expensive Broomhandles at that time ) Owning an arsenal making guns and ammo, was like having a hen that could lay gold eggs. Not only the products could arm his own troops, guns and ammo could be sold or given to other warlords in alliance. But who knows... today's comrades could be tomorrow's enemies, that's especially true among warlords, "how to prevent today's comrades from hitting me in future using my guns".... say, a special cartridge was designed, and there was no other supply except Shansei, that's not impossible in this background and in this man's personality. So, in case of need, just cut that special ammo supply, even if enemy had his guns, those guns would be useless, nowhere else to find supply of this special ammo.

But this cannot be verified by looking at 1980s imports. Original Shansei samples must be studied. I have never gotten one. Write down an item on note book, for future.

Anyone has original Shansei?

[Paladinpainter]

Isnt identifying which of the Shanxis are original, ie. late 1920's, part of the problem ? What are the characteristics of the "modern" ones that distinguish them from the "originals"?

I have heard the proprietary cartridge idea that Alvin mentions from other sources. It sounds plausible to me.
John

[alvin]

Original Shansei has a few characteristics:

1) It is a 10% or, at most a 20% gun;
2) Bore must NOT be excellent. Warlord arsenal did not have technology to make non-corrosive ammo. And, Chinese were not collectors. No "Safe Queen".
2) It has no importer stamp;
3) Grip panels must be worn, and the grip screw head is on the right side (reverse of Mauser); and
4) All steel parts are milled.

[Sergio Natali]

The one below belonged to a gunshop and has just been sold, but the picture still appears on the gunshop site, I've noticed that the grip screw head is on the wrong side, does it means that is a 1980 copy?

Sergio

[Paladinpainter]

Sergio, that one looks a lot like mine. Rust blued finish in fairly decent condition, deep pitting under the grip panels, and a nice, frosty bore. The internal parts are well finished. In tiny print, its stamped: "N. A. Co., Ridgewood NJ" (2 lines) on the front grip strap and "Cal. 45 ACP" on the rear grip strap. Probably a 'Navy Arms Special', if all the production went into service and none were stored in an armory, as you say Alvin. The poor condition of the regular C96s I've seen that are reportedly from China, certainly supports your thinking.
Of the 11 Shanxi I've seen, all had serial numbers under 2000. That always struck me as odd.
I've seen an article that asserts there is a difference in the Chinese stampings. I'll see if I can find it.
See ya,
John

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Paladinpainter

While reading an article about a .45 Luger Carbine on the other board, I came across mention of the early production of a .45 cartridge by the Frankford Arsenal that was " 1mm" longer - the .45 F.A. 4-06.

Yes, a good read -

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histor...ge_History.htm