1939 holster

txm3761 · 03-16-2012, 04:36 PM

please bear with me as this is my first attempt at posting photos to this forum. holster is faintly stamped K.W.K 1939 along with eagle stamp. received this along with 1940 mauser pistol (all matching numbers including one mag). pistol is in + cond. with normal blueing wear on barrel tip, side plate,etc. judge holster by attached pics (saving for not so good photo quality and some raindrops). stitching, mag holder, pullup strap and toolpouch intact. this rig was returned from europe following the war by a family friend who was in the medical corps. with his passing, his widow asked me if i would take it (she hates guns). i believe that this pistol and holster were tucked away for fifty years, certainly i don't think that it has been fired since the war, scotty was not a gun guy. anyhow i have never seen this K.W.K. stamping. any comments from forum experts would be appreciated.
tom

alanint · 03-16-2012, 04:52 PM

Nice, but let's see the gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aufklarung · 03-16-2012, 09:35 PM

Looking good! I like that panzer assault and wound badge also. Nice touch.

Richard

alanint · 03-16-2012, 10:07 PM

Wound Badge in "GOLD"!! Now there was a veteran!

Aufklarung · 03-17-2012, 09:34 AM

I would bet it's a black wound badge with finish worn off showing the brass. Fairly common with these. It is the more rare 1st pattern 1939 version which was given to vets of the Spanish Condor Legion and continued to be used till supplies ran out and replaced. Wonderful bring back!

Richard

txm3761 · 03-17-2012, 04:07 PM

thank you for your replys.
tom

txm3761 · 03-17-2012, 05:22 PM

in response to richards reply, i agree that this is probably an early issue wound badge, however i would disagree with your opinion that it originally was a black wound badge, with the black paint having worn off revealing the brass.
black wound badges were never manufactured in brass. painted steel was most commonly used until later in the war when shortages of steel for war priorities led to the use of cheaper pot metals, again black painted. black war badges were produced utilizing the die stamping process. this resulted in a badge with a recessed or "dished" back surface. most black badges will be magnet sensitive as they are made of ferric material.
gold war badges were cast in either brass, bronze or tombak (a copper/zinc alloy) these materials are not magnet sensitive. gold badges were prodced using the die cast process, this resulted in a reverse surface that was solid, flat and smooth. late in the war some gold badges were cast in cheaper alloys and gold painted, again due to war shortages.
it is my opinion that this was originally produced as a gold war badge. flat, smooth back surface, not magnetic sensitive, no sign of peeling, bubbling or defective paint. to my eyes it looks like solid brass, however not being an expert on metals i can not say with 100% certainty that it could not be bronze or tombak.
i do not mean this to be an argumentitive reply richard, on the contrary, it prompted me to put on my research hat and dig in, which is we are all here anyway, isn't it. best regards.
tom

Aufklarung · 03-17-2012, 05:52 PM

Hi Tom,

Not considered argumentitive at all and I do like your in depth response. You may very well be correct as from photos without close detail hard to tell for sure. You having "in hand" gives you the best advantage. I have in the past seen many times people confuse worn black wound badges with gold ones. So this one is solid back? If so all the more reason it could be a gold one as I don't recall seeing a solid back black version. I don't suppose your can see a maker number on the back? Black or gold I really do like what you have there and would be most happy to have such in my collection. Wonderful find!

Best regards,
Richard

alanint · 03-17-2012, 06:10 PM

My initial asessment that it was a gold badge, and an early one at that were the badge's edges, which curve under in their design. A struck badge will never have that undercut at their edge.

Both badges are exceptional

txm3761 · 03-17-2012, 08:38 PM

Richard and Alan,
Thank you for your responses.
I did not mean for this to turn into a discussion on war badges, my main interest was in trying to obtain information on the 1939 K.W.K. holster, but it's o.k. with me , if it's o.k. with everyone else.
I aquired this holster along with a 1940 dated Mauser P-08 from a family friend after her husbands passing. He was an army veteran medical corps, and brought it back after the war.
I received it as you see it, badges attached, and I believe that he probably aquired it from another G.I. like this to. I realize that the addition of these war badges takes away from the collectable value of the holster That is no concern to me I have no intention of selling, I appreciate the WW2 historical nature of these, no doubt attached in France or Germany by a young G.I. also it has given me a whole nuther historical area to explore. It is quite amazing the number and variety of different award pins, ribbons that the Germans produced for military and civilians.
Richard,I have not removed the wound badge from the holster to check the makers marl, as the closure hook has been squeezed down to being completely closed, I am curious, but afraid that I might snap the old metal if I attempt to pry it up.
Again, my main interest is the holster Serching this forum and other sources I have found no information on holsters made by K.W.K. I do believe based on information, picture, etc. mostly from this forum, as well as knowing the previous owner for many years that this along with the pistol are legitamate bringbacks. But any opinions or information are welcome.
Tom

Arizona Slim · 03-18-2012, 09:34 AM

Hi Thomas, could the K.W.K. 1939 possibly be R.W.K. 1939? And can you make out the WaA number below the Eagle, maybe 107? I was able to find this in Benders, Luger Holsters and Accessories of The 20th Century, page 179 but nothing on K.W.K. and no information as to the manufacturer, perhaps one of the resident experts will be able to help you, good luck.
Lon

txm3761 · 03-18-2012, 10:58 AM

Hi Lon,
Thanks for the lead! Upon close inspection with a magnifying glass the stamping below the eagle does indeed read Waa 107 in an inverted halfmoon shape. This portion of the stamping is very faint, actually the entire stamping looks lighter than most that I have seen. I am however quite sure that it is K.W.K. As you say, perhaps others will have more info. Thanks and best regards.
Tom

Arizona Slim · 03-18-2012, 02:28 PM

Tom, this looks like it could be the information you are looking for; Code - KWK, Manufacturer - Schnellpressenfabrik A.G., Location - Heidelberg, Eppelheimer Strasse 5-7. Lon

txm3761 · 03-18-2012, 07:18 PM

Thank you again for all of your help.
It is my understanding, (never knew this) that a different waa number was assigned to each individual maker. So it would stand to reason that my 107 holster and the one shown in the Benders book would have been manufactured by the same firm.
The R.W.K./K.W.K. question remains. I believed that this was the manufacturers name, but perhaps not, maybe another code of some kind.
I researched Schnellpressenfabrik A.G. They are are a very old German firm which is still in buisness today. They are manufacturers of offset printing machinery. Their website makes no mention in its timeline of participating in the war effort (no surprise there!) but no doubt this company was also involved in heavy duty bindery equipment...which meant sewing machines.
A possible clue?
Thank you again Lon for your fine detective work!
Tom

alanint · 03-18-2012, 08:19 PM

Also remember that dies broke more often than you think. A broken "R" die could look like a "K".

txm3761 · 03-18-2012, 08:39 PM

Good point Alan!
Tom

Joe Burkel · 05-27-2012, 12:13 AM

Just to note that I have a P-08 holster marked K.W.K. 1939 WaA 107
Came with my 1939 42 code Luger with G.I. Bring back certificate. however it listed the pistol as Ger. luger cal.38 and two Ger. micrometers.

sheepherder · 05-27-2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Burkel

Just to note that I have a P-08 holster marked K.W.K. 1939 WaA 107
Came with my 1939 42 code Luger with G.I. Bring back certificate. however it listed the pistol as Ger. luger cal.38 and two Ger. micrometers.

I would suspect that the certifying officer (not necessarily familiar with weapons) would give it a description he was familiar with; namely, 45 or 38 or 22...Anything else might be beyond his experience...

Wartime bringback micrometers??? Do you have them???

lugerholsterrepair · 05-27-2012, 11:56 AM

The R.W.K./K.W.K. question remains. I believed that this was the manufacturers name, but perhaps not, maybe another code of some kind.

No..NOT another code of somekind. 3 letter codes were manufacturer codes , nothing more..nothing less.

Jim has deciphered it as seen above.. KWK, Manufacturer - Schnellpressenfabrik A.G., Location - Heidelberg, Eppelheimer Strasse 5-7. Lon

This according to the 800 page "Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat." Berlin 1944 Gebruekt im Oberkommando des Heeres.

This volume contains thousands of maker codes..a very handy book to have on hand.

There can be NO RWK as the codes in 1944 stopped at O..There are no P-Q etc. so of course no R.

bergwerk · 07-15-2012, 09:52 AM

hi to all luger friends , here are pictures of my kwk holster , hope theyre ok [ i know he belt loops have been re done but still lovely to me , cheers

03-16-2012, 04:36 PM	#1
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	1939 holster please bear with me as this is my first attempt at posting photos to this forum. holster is faintly stamped K.W.K 1939 along with eagle stamp. received this along with 1940 mauser pistol (all matching numbers including one mag). pistol is in + cond. with normal blueing wear on barrel tip, side plate,etc. judge holster by attached pics (saving for not so good photo quality and some raindrops). stitching, mag holder, pullup strap and toolpouch intact. this rig was returned from europe following the war by a family friend who was in the medical corps. with his passing, his widow asked me if i would take it (she hates guns). i believe that this pistol and holster were tucked away for fifty years, certainly i don't think that it has been fired since the war, scotty was not a gun guy. anyhow i have never seen this K.W.K. stamping. any comments from forum experts would be appreciated. tom Attached Thumbnails

03-17-2012, 06:10 PM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	My initial asessment that it was a gold badge, and an early one at that were the badge's edges, which curve under in their design. A struck badge will never have that undercut at their edge. Both badges are exceptional Last edited by alanint; 03-18-2012 at 12:50 PM.

05-27-2012, 11:56 AM	#19
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,855 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	The R.W.K./K.W.K. question remains. I believed that this was the manufacturers name, but perhaps not, maybe another code of some kind. No..NOT another code of somekind. 3 letter codes were manufacturer codes , nothing more..nothing less. Jim has deciphered it as seen above.. KWK, Manufacturer - Schnellpressenfabrik A.G., Location - Heidelberg, Eppelheimer Strasse 5-7. Lon This according to the 800 page "Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat." Berlin 1944 Gebruekt im Oberkommando des Heeres. This volume contains thousands of maker codes..a very handy book to have on hand. There can be NO RWK as the codes in 1944 stopped at O..There are no P-Q etc. so of course no R. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-15-2012, 09:52 AM	#20
bergwerk User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: north Posts: 59 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	my kwk holster hi to all luger friends , here are pictures of my kwk holster , hope theyre ok [ i know he belt loops have been re done but still lovely to me , cheers Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

03-16-2012, 04:52 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Nice, but let's see the gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

03-16-2012, 09:35 PM	#3
Aufklarung User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking good! I like that panzer assault and wound badge also. Nice touch. Richard

03-16-2012, 10:07 PM	#4
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Wound Badge in "GOLD"!! Now there was a veteran!

03-17-2012, 09:34 AM	#5
Aufklarung User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would bet it's a black wound badge with finish worn off showing the brass. Fairly common with these. It is the more rare 1st pattern 1939 version which was given to vets of the Spanish Condor Legion and continued to be used till supplies ran out and replaced. Wonderful bring back! Richard

03-17-2012, 04:07 PM	#6
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thank you for your replys. tom

03-17-2012, 05:22 PM	#7
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	in response to richards reply, i agree that this is probably an early issue wound badge, however i would disagree with your opinion that it originally was a black wound badge, with the black paint having worn off revealing the brass. black wound badges were never manufactured in brass. painted steel was most commonly used until later in the war when shortages of steel for war priorities led to the use of cheaper pot metals, again black painted. black war badges were produced utilizing the die stamping process. this resulted in a badge with a recessed or "dished" back surface. most black badges will be magnet sensitive as they are made of ferric material. gold war badges were cast in either brass, bronze or tombak (a copper/zinc alloy) these materials are not magnet sensitive. gold badges were prodced using the die cast process, this resulted in a reverse surface that was solid, flat and smooth. late in the war some gold badges were cast in cheaper alloys and gold painted, again due to war shortages. it is my opinion that this was originally produced as a gold war badge. flat, smooth back surface, not magnetic sensitive, no sign of peeling, bubbling or defective paint. to my eyes it looks like solid brass, however not being an expert on metals i can not say with 100% certainty that it could not be bronze or tombak. i do not mean this to be an argumentitive reply richard, on the contrary, it prompted me to put on my research hat and dig in, which is we are all here anyway, isn't it. best regards. tom

03-17-2012, 05:52 PM	#8
Aufklarung User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Tom, Not considered argumentitive at all and I do like your in depth response. You may very well be correct as from photos without close detail hard to tell for sure. You having "in hand" gives you the best advantage. I have in the past seen many times people confuse worn black wound badges with gold ones. So this one is solid back? If so all the more reason it could be a gold one as I don't recall seeing a solid back black version. I don't suppose your can see a maker number on the back? Black or gold I really do like what you have there and would be most happy to have such in my collection. Wonderful find! Best regards, Richard

03-17-2012, 08:38 PM	#10
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Richard and Alan, Thank you for your responses. I did not mean for this to turn into a discussion on war badges, my main interest was in trying to obtain information on the 1939 K.W.K. holster, but it's o.k. with me , if it's o.k. with everyone else. I aquired this holster along with a 1940 dated Mauser P-08 from a family friend after her husbands passing. He was an army veteran medical corps, and brought it back after the war. I received it as you see it, badges attached, and I believe that he probably aquired it from another G.I. like this to. I realize that the addition of these war badges takes away from the collectable value of the holster That is no concern to me I have no intention of selling, I appreciate the WW2 historical nature of these, no doubt attached in France or Germany by a young G.I. also it has given me a whole nuther historical area to explore. It is quite amazing the number and variety of different award pins, ribbons that the Germans produced for military and civilians. Richard,I have not removed the wound badge from the holster to check the makers marl, as the closure hook has been squeezed down to being completely closed, I am curious, but afraid that I might snap the old metal if I attempt to pry it up. Again, my main interest is the holster Serching this forum and other sources I have found no information on holsters made by K.W.K. I do believe based on information, picture, etc. mostly from this forum, as well as knowing the previous owner for many years that this along with the pistol are legitamate bringbacks. But any opinions or information are welcome. Tom

03-18-2012, 09:34 AM	#11
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	Hi Thomas, could the K.W.K. 1939 possibly be R.W.K. 1939? And can you make out the WaA number below the Eagle, maybe 107? I was able to find this in Benders, Luger Holsters and Accessories of The 20th Century, page 179 but nothing on K.W.K. and no information as to the manufacturer, perhaps one of the resident experts will be able to help you, good luck. Lon

03-18-2012, 10:58 AM	#12
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hi Lon, Thanks for the lead! Upon close inspection with a magnifying glass the stamping below the eagle does indeed read Waa 107 in an inverted halfmoon shape. This portion of the stamping is very faint, actually the entire stamping looks lighter than most that I have seen. I am however quite sure that it is K.W.K. As you say, perhaps others will have more info. Thanks and best regards. Tom

03-18-2012, 02:28 PM	#13
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	Tom, this looks like it could be the information you are looking for; Code - KWK, Manufacturer - Schnellpressenfabrik A.G., Location - Heidelberg, Eppelheimer Strasse 5-7. Lon

03-18-2012, 07:18 PM	#14
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you again for all of your help. It is my understanding, (never knew this) that a different waa number was assigned to each individual maker. So it would stand to reason that my 107 holster and the one shown in the Benders book would have been manufactured by the same firm. The R.W.K./K.W.K. question remains. I believed that this was the manufacturers name, but perhaps not, maybe another code of some kind. I researched Schnellpressenfabrik A.G. They are are a very old German firm which is still in buisness today. They are manufacturers of offset printing machinery. Their website makes no mention in its timeline of participating in the war effort (no surprise there!) but no doubt this company was also involved in heavy duty bindery equipment...which meant sewing machines. A possible clue? Thank you again Lon for your fine detective work! Tom

03-18-2012, 08:19 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Also remember that dies broke more often than you think. A broken "R" die could look like a "K".

03-18-2012, 08:39 PM	#16
txm3761 User Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Good point Alan! Tom

05-27-2012, 12:13 AM	#17
Joe Burkel New User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Mountains of NC Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just to note that I have a P-08 holster marked K.W.K. 1939 WaA 107 Came with my 1939 42 code Luger with G.I. Bring back certificate. however it listed the pistol as Ger. luger cal.38 and two Ger. micrometers.