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Unread 12-19-2018, 08:46 PM   #21
mrerick
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In the beginning the Imperial Armory at Erfurt was without form and darkness was upon the manufacturing floor.

And the spirit of Lugers moved upon the tooling and the gauges and the armorers said "Let there be metal chips" and there were drills and mills and the armorers saw that it was good.

And the armorers separated the dimensions of metal, the fit from the unfit, and the gauges were applied and considered.

And the inspectors created the hardest and sharpest of dies and said, let the metal of quality be separated from that of dross and let the separate dies be applied: the dark of the Crown/RC and the light of acceptance dies.

And the armorers made the assembly fixtures and guided the metal parts into perfect fitment and dimensional bliss.

Lo, the assembly of the frame and the receiver and the toggle train was complete, and the work of the inspectors was completed and the whole came forth from the separate parts and the armorers saw that it was good.

Then in a final test of power, the proof loads were inserted and fired in succession ensuring the safety of all that encountered the Luger.

And the assembly of the first day was given up to the museum and lost, and the assembly of the second day was given up to the government and lost.

And on the third day was John's Erfurt #3 pistol, and the Luger was of great form, and the Crown Die was without flaw. and the finish was without blemish and then number and inspection dies were applied crisply in every place they were required.

And on the last day the armorers rested and saw that it was very good...
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Unread 12-19-2018, 09:31 PM   #22
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Here are pics of the one I mentioned, not quite nearly as nice as what was shown earlier
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:38 AM   #23
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Patrick,

If you look closely at your third and fourth pictures you'll see that there is a groove where the frame's serial number is normally placed.

Compare this to the flat and square appearance of this surface on the ser no. 3 pistol.

It's unusual. Is that seen on other Erfurts of this period?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 09:14 AM   #24
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[QUOTE=mrerick;321753]Patrick,

If you look closely at your third and fourth pictures you'll see that there is a groove where the frame's serial number is normally placed.

Compare this to the flat and square appearance of this surface on the ser no. 3 pistol.

It's unusual. Is that seen on other Erfurts of this period?[
NO/QUOTE]

I believe the front of the frame was "faced off" and a new number applied to create a "forced" match. The "130" is offset, and that is also not "normal". JMHO.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 09:34 AM   #25
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[QUOTE=DonVoigt;321754]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrerick View Post
Patrick,

If you look closely at your third and fourth pictures you'll see that there is a groove where the frame's serial number is normally placed.

Compare this to the flat and square appearance of this surface on the ser no. 3 pistol.

It's unusual. Is that seen on other Erfurts of this period?[
NO/QUOTE]

I believe the front of the frame was "faced off" and a new number applied to create a "forced" match. The "130" is offset, and that is also not "normal". JMHO.

Interesting I wonder if this was done at the factory? Reworked maybe after the war? This came from a descendant of the vet who brought it back.

I will post clearer pictures of the frame Serial this evening. Are their any other areas I should focus on?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 11:24 AM   #26
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[QUOTE=patsy57;321755]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post


Interesting I wonder if this was done at the factory? Reworked maybe after the war? This came from a descendant of the vet who brought it back.

I will post clearer pictures of the frame Serial this evening. Are their any other areas I should focus on?
In addition to the concerns already noted, I notice the gun is "Germany" marked on the rear of the frame. IIRC, this was applied post-WWI for guns destined for export to the US. I have a 1915 DWM that's also marked "Germany", albeit in a different location.) I'm no RKI by any stretch of the imagination, but in light of the "Germany" marking I'd be suspect of the story that the gun was captured.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 11:37 AM   #27
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[QUOTE=Bill_in_VA;321756]
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsy57 View Post

In addition to the concerns already noted, I notice the gun is "Germany" marked on the rear of the frame. IIRC, this was applied post-WWI for guns destined for export to the US. I have a 1915 DWM that's also marked "Germany", albeit in a different location.) I'm no RKI by any stretch of the imagination, but in light of the "Germany" marking I'd be suspect of the story that the gun was captured.

This is very interesting... this is the stuff That perplexes me.

Question are their any examples of the stamps on this gun being on other examples marked Germany from 1914?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 11:46 AM   #28
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there are lots of examples of WW1 made and used lugers (and other items) that are germany stamped - however, the germany marking although used prior to the war, is almost assuredly post war, as lots of guns were fixed by DWM and other shops for export and cash during their depression, which started just after the war - however, Erfurt was forced to quit making or refurbishing after the war by the allied commission and they did not make ANY commercial arms during the war.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 01:38 PM   #29
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Attached are more pics.

Was this factory reworked?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 01:40 PM   #30
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Final pics.....
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Unread 12-20-2018, 01:40 PM   #31
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The Germany is almost certainly a post war marking; as Ed says- Erfurt made no lugers before 1910 or dated after 1918- so it was marked for export post WWI. The Germany stamping also indicates at least the frame was not "captured",
though:
I could make up a story, that could be true, that the original frame was de-lugged in the US sometime after import, and the pistol subsequently "restored" by renumbering another Erfurt frame. The only number on the frame is on the front.

No question in my mind that the frame was altered and re-numbered.
Somewhere along the line the lanyard loop was removed also.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 01:47 PM   #32
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I tried to show all markings on the lower receiver as well as the circles which I haven’t seen before in pic 2, I presume lanyard loop

Seems it could have been reworked
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Unread 12-20-2018, 02:18 PM   #33
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Correct, the 2 circles below and on each side of "Germany" are the remnants of the lanyard loop. No legal reason to remove it.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 04:15 PM   #34
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Are we thinking these things were done when exported or after?

I’m in the process of acquiring this piece and want to ensure I pay the right price for it.

It seems everything is stamped all over In regards to proofs etc.. but since I don’t have books I can’t be sure.

That being said the frame has letter stamps on it which are Interesting, pics above..
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Unread 12-20-2018, 05:36 PM   #35
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"Erfurt made no lugers before 1914 or dated after 1918". Might want to walk that one back Don, My slick backed 1912 and 1913 beg to differ. Chamber dates of 1910-1914 and 1916-1918 (no 1915 Erfurts) are accepted as genuine. As a government arsenal it never made commercial P08s. "Germany" marked Erfurts were military production offered for commercial sale post war.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 07:13 PM   #36
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Why anyone would cut off the lanyard loop is beyond me, so whether it was done in Europe or in the USA is anyone's guess.
There have been enough questions raised that personally I would proceed very cautiously. What are you planning to spend?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 07:30 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichSr View Post
"Erfurt made no lugers before 1914 or dated after 1918". Might want to walk that one back Don, My slick backed 1912 and 1913 beg to differ. Chamber dates of 1910-1914 and 1916-1918 (no 1915 Erfurts) are accepted as genuine. As a government arsenal it never made commercial P08s. "Germany" marked Erfurts were military production offered for commercial sale post war.
Of course you are correct.
I was thinking Erfurt Artillery for the 1914 date, which is the only year Erfurt made the artillery.

I'll fix my post.
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Unread 12-20-2018, 07:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidJayUden View Post
Why anyone would cut off the lanyard loop is beyond me, so whether it was done in Europe or in the USA is anyone's guess.
There have been enough questions raised that personally I would proceed very cautiously. What are you planning to spend?
dju
I was planning on purchasing it, especially since itís an artillery luger.

Not sure on price now though.. thoughts?
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Unread 12-20-2018, 07:51 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonVoigt View Post
Of course you are correct.
I was thinking Erfurt Artillery for the 1914 date, which is the only year Erfurt made the artillery.

I'll fix my post.
This is an artillery Luger
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Unread 12-20-2018, 08:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsy57 View Post
I was planning on purchasing it, especially since itís an artillery luger.

Not sure on price now though.. thoughts?
I would pass, due to the monkey business with the numbers on the front of the frame and only fair condition; unless it is priced as a shooter. JMHO.
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