Please help me identify this broom handle

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm still "missing" why an Austrian connection(what are the indications?) would cause you to question the 9mm chambering to be something else.

What other 9mm would be a reasonable speculation if not 9x19?

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

Bingo.

And purely FYI, no offense intended, it's actually 9x22.5 Steyr. That's the factor which prevents using the 9mm(x22.5) Steyr and the 9(x23) Largo/Bergmann cartridges interchangeably.

Another consideration is the original serial number on the barrel/barrel extension, and the serial number range in which it falls.

Alas, C96 collectors generally have to deal with more ambiguity than do Luger collectors.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

I was thinking of 9x21, for those countries that ban military chambered firearms.

There are several members here who won't collect re-chambered Lugers because they must conform to their government's regulations.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

Yes, it could be 9 x anything, but what is the Austrian connection?

Any why either of the above instead of just leaving it in 9x19 ?

Could be 9mm "export" also, but I'm still missing why this particular Red 9 causes speculation of a re-chambering over another similar one?

Ok, the upper is re-numbered to match the lower- and perhaps not by the "Germans". If done by the Spanish 9mm largo makes sense, by the Austrians 9mm Steyr.

After the "war" (either I or II), the Austrians had lots of 9mm Steyr ammo, but also lots of 9mm P was left there too!

But I still am missing the "Austrian" connection. What is it about the pistol that indicates a visit to Austria?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Bingo.

And purely FYI, no offense intended, it's actually 9x22.5 Steyr. That's the factor which prevents using the 9mm(x22.5) Steyr and the 9(x23) Largo/Bergmann cartridges interchangeably.

Another consideration is the original serial number on the barrel/barrel extension, and the serial number range in which it falls.

Alas, C96 collectors generally have to deal with more ambiguity than do Luger collectors.

118,xxx is well within the "Red 9" serial number range; as is 133,yyy;
why is this a consideration?

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

118,xxx is well within the "Red 9" serial number range; as is 133,yyy;
why is this a consideration?

Yes sir, that is a correct statement. But this is a C96. Here is what "C96 collector think" looks like:

In what other serial number range does the serial number 118207 fall? What are the distinguishing characteristics of the C96 pistols that bookend that serial number range?

Is there any uncertainty that a "Red Nine" with a serial number of 133855 was delivered as a part of the Imperial German Army contract for C96 pistols chambered for the 9 mmP?

[bubbapug1]

The cast is definitely 9mm para. So I don't have to brass dive for the 7.63 Mauser amy longer.

The barrel is tight at (4.008") 4". I do think this gun was an original Prussian red nine due to the matching grips and follower being exclusive to 9mm. We will never know why the upper was changed out but it is a Mauser upper originally stamped in the Prussian contract range, but restamped with a completely different font than original
Mausers.

So it's a Frankenstein but a darn nice looking one!!

[Kyrie]

That was, I think, the main chance and I’m happy for you it turned out that way. It will make a nice shooter. It’s a lot easier to find 9x19 Parabellum ammunition than it is to find 9x25 Mauser!

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

--- snip ---
But I still am missing the "Austrian" connection. What is it about the pistol that indicates a visit to Austria?

Don,

With what cartridge this C96 is chambered for established I’ll share what I was thinking the about the potential for an Austrian connection.

Let’s start with the simpler of the two major components, frame.

Frame serial number of 133,855, Red Nine grip panels, and New Safety are consistent with an Imperial Contract C96. But I’m not seeing any Imperial inspection/acceptance stamps. So maybe the frame from an Imperial Contract C96 never delivered to the Imperial German army. We don’t really know how many of the prospective 150,000 contracted Imperial Army 9x19 guns were actually delivered. Some sources go as high as 138,000, other have a low of 130,000. We also don’t know whether the C96s delivered were delivered in serial number order (doubtful, given the likelihood of rejected and reworked/replaced guns). A serial number in the 133,000 range puts this gun in the middle of the not-known-if-delivered C96s.

The barrel extension is much more ambiguous, and this is from whence the potential of an Austrian connection arises.

An original serial number of 118,207 puts the barrel extension in the range of the Imperial Contract, but also puts it in the range of the Pre-War Commercial variations. The absence of an Imperial Army inspection/acceptance stamp on the right barrel increases the chance the barrel/barrel extension is from a Pre-War Commercial and reduces the chances it is from an Imperial Army Contract C96. It would help if the barrel/barrel extension still has the rear sight leaf, but it doesn’t – no help there.

A Pre-War Commercial with a serial number of 118,207, associated with an Imperial Army contract frame, and chambered for a 9 mm cartridge is immediately interesting. Such a gun is right smack in the middle of the serial number range delimited by the known block of Early 9 mm Export variations (lowest noted serial number 84,000 range) and the known block of Late 9 mm Export variations (Highest noted serial number 179,000 range). [see Breathed & Schroeder]

This is why I asked for a picture of the top of the magazine follower. The C96s chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser and 9x19 Parabellum used the same magazine follower. Only those C96s chambered for the 9x25 Mauser required, and came from the factory with, the dished magazine follower.

I was originally of the opinion that this C96 was made up from two different Imperial Army Contract guns, and was factory made for the 9x19 Parabellum. The barrel/barrel extension serial number in the range of 9x25 Mauser and the 9x25 Mauser follower introduced some uncertainty in terms of when it was made and what the barrel/barrel extension was chambered for.

The potential for an Austria connection arises from several different observations, and being able to make those observations requires some knowledge of the 9x25 Mauser cartridge, the potential reasons for its development, some sense of how frequently Austria purchased C96s, and the use of arms chambered for the 9x25 Mauser by the Austrian army and auxiliaries.

This gets more complicated than I have the time or desire to get into. So briefy…

The manner in which the barrel/barrel extension was re-numbered is not consistent with German military or commercial practice. It is something I have seen on Austrian Frankensteins. That’s the first suggestion of an Austrian connection.

Mauser filled some numbers of Austrian contracts during the Great War. The vast majority of these C96s were chambered for the 7.63 Mauser, but some small number of these War Time Commercial and Pre-war Commercial variations delivered to Austria were chambered for the 9x25 Mauser. Austrians also purchased some number of 1930 variation C96s, and examples of Austrian M 1930 variations chambered for the 9x25 Mauser are known to exist (I’ve seen and handled examples). These guns, IMO, had a connection to people serving in the Austrian Army or auxiliaries. I’ve had reports from people (other C96 collectors) that I consider reliable that C96 Model 1930 variants chambered for the 9x22.5 Steyr exist, but I’ve never personally handled one. These 9 mm Steyr C96s would have been associated with the Austria police and auxiliaries.

Google the Austria MP-34 and follow the leads for more information on the Austria usage of the 9x25 Mauser.

So, collectively, a barrel/barrel extension from a serial number range from which C96s were delivered to Austria, re-numbered in a manner not German but seen in Austria re-builds suggests an Austrian connection. The magazine follower from a C96 factory chambered for the 9x25 Mauser in a C96 with a serial number in the Early/Late 9mm Export range, strengthens that suggestion of an Austrian connection and the possibility that the barrel/barrel extension is not chambered for the 9x19.

All of that, in summation, is why I suspected an Austrian connection and recommended a chamber cast.

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Kyrie.
Great explantion.
I just subscribe to the "simple" answer is usually the correct one.

One has to assume quite a lot of bits and pieces came together to get the Austrian connection, as it is not visible on the pistol itself; the added numbers could have been done anywhere and anytime IMO.

Whether or not the dished follower was necessary or not, it is present in many Red 9s; so many that in the past it was "assumed" that a Red 9 without the dished follower indicated a "wrong" follower. I'm talking 50 years ago of course, maybe this has been elucidated since then.

I collected Brooms long ago, and have not followed any new info that may have been gained in the last 40 or 50 years.

Thanks again for sharing the evaluation of the possible Austrian indications.

[bubbapug1]

My god that is a lot of info. I wish the allies had not destroyed the factory records. I think this thread has doubled my understanding of red nines. And also doubled my confusion!!

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

--- snip ---
Whether or not the dished follower was necessary or not, it is present in many Red 9s; so many that in the past it was "assumed" that a Red 9 without the dished follower indicated a "wrong" follower. I'm talking 50 years ago of course, maybe this has been elucidated since then.

Purely IME, the mistaken connection of 9x25 Mauser magazine followers and Imperial Army contract C96 pistols seems to date to the early 1990s, and a batch of mismatched C96s imported by CAI. Some fairly large number of those guns had 9x25 Mauser followers, which suggested some interesting lines of speculation concerning their provenance.

That was the first time I saw a 9x25 Mauser follower in a 9x19 C96 (and I had handled and owned my share of "Red Nines" by then). The unique connection between the 9x25 magazine follower and the 9x25 C96 was documented as early as 1967, with "System Mauser" (Breathed & Schroeder).

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

My god that is a lot of info. I wish the allies had not destroyed the factory records. I think this thread has doubled my understanding of red nines. And also doubled my confusion!!

As it turns out the Mauser factory records were not destroyed. It's a twisty tale but the Mauser factory records survived, albeit in a scattered form, and are slowly coming to light thanks to Jon Speed , et. al.

See:

"The Mauser Archive"
"Mauser: Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles"
"Mauser Pistolen: Development and Production, 1877-1946"
"Mauser Smallbores: Sporting,Target & Training Rifles"
"Paul Mauser His Life, Company, and Handgun Development 1838-1914" (Mauro Baudino)

Great stuff all!

And don't feel like the Lone Ranger in your confusion - it's a common enough state in C96 collectors.

Lugers are fairly easy in comparison to C96s. With Lugers it's chambered for either the 9 mm Parabellum or the 7.65 Parabellum.

C96 factory chamberings include:

7.63 Mauser
9 mm parabellum
9 mm Mauser
8.15 mm

Post factory conversions include:

7.65 Parabellum
9x23 Largo
9x21
.22 Long Rifle
Various wildcat cartridges.

Plus the damn things keep showing up in use wherever people are still warring against someone - including in Afghanistan today.

[bubbapug1]

So lets not even get into Astras...


Outer cover done, internals not yet done. You can see faint jeweling on the internals



End product

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Purely IME, the mistaken connection of 9x25 Mauser magazine followers and Imperial Army contract C96 pistols seems to date to the early 1990s, and a batch of mismatched C96s imported by CAI. Some fairly large number of those guns had 9x25 Mauser followers, which suggested some interesting lines of speculation concerning their provenance.

That was the first time I saw a 9x25 Mauser follower in a 9x19 C96 (and I had handled and owned my share of "Red Nines" by then). The unique connection between the 9x25 magazine follower and the 9x25 C96 was documented as early as 1967, with "System Mauser" (Breathed & Schroeder).

Thanks Kyrie, I've always wondered "why the dip"- when the flat followers seem to work just fine. Now I know.

[bubbapug1]

Many reference works do indicate the scalloping in the follower is a trait of the 9mm red nine. I have been to a few recent auctions with some vintage prussian contract red nines and the scallop was present. Here is one on line source, although I cannot vouch for his credentials he does seem to be knowledgeable about the broomhandles. Just wondering if maybe this is truly a red nine feature.

http://askmisterscience.com/1896mauserbackup/index.html

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

So lets not even get into Astras...

I can do Astra model 900s

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

Many reference works do indicate the scalloping in the follower is a trait of the 9mm red nine. I have been to a few recent auctions with some vintage prussian contract red nines and the scallop was present. Here is one on line source, although I cannot vouch for his credentials he does seem to be knowledgeable about the broomhandles. Just wondering if maybe this is truly a red nine feature.

http://askmisterscience.com/1896mauserbackup/index.html

I’m of the opinion that what you are seeing is circular reporting rather than “many reference works.” Someone (maybe even someone regarded as an authority) makes an assertion, other people repeat that assertion without crediting the source, and pretty soon we have lots of people to cite :-(

I know the above site, having read it shortly after it came up. It repeats quite a bit of, well, let’s call it “questionable information.”

While we don’t, and may never, know all the Mauser contracts for the C96 I don’t believe the State of Prussia ever let one. The C96s from what collectors call the “Red Nine” contract are from a contract let by the German Imperial Army, not Prussia (which is just one of the German States that made up Imperial Germany). Prussian troops got their fair share of guns from this contract, and even stamped some of them with the property mark of Prussia (mostly on the front of the magazine box), but the contract was let and paid for at the Imperial level.

Trivia for the day:

The first pistols produced under the Imperial German Army contract were especially nicely finished and presented to important members of the General Staff in rosewood presentation cases. One such C96, presented to a Prussian General on the Staff, had a gold filled Prussian Eagle stamped on it.

Don’t even get me started on the horrible info on the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge on that site…

[bubbapug1]

I haven't read any of the info on the tokerev Ammo on the site

I do ageee 100% with misinformation being recirculated on the internet and also in gun books etc. I see it all the time.

I did do my own tests with various tokerev ammo and new 30 Mauser ammo from fiochhi and PPU. I tested all the rounds in a tokerev pistol to insure uniformity of the chrony data.

Here is what I found.

PPU 30 Mauser. Avg velocity 1320 fps

Tokerev white box avg velocity 1458 avg velocity, es was 150 fps

Tokerev brown box avg vel 1472. Es was 400 fps. Yes, crappy QC on powder drops for sure

Of course I need to supply the white and brown box makers and I will. Both were surplus and corrosive. I can't find the fiochhi data at the moment.

I'm using 8.0 grains of blue dot with a 67 grain Bullet = 1320 fps. The astra won't cycle with that load so it gets 9.0 grains with an eighty five grain bullet. Runs great but no chrony data. I use quickload and the pressures were still Low in that range.