Please help me identify this broom handle

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm still "missing" why an Austrian connection(what are the indications?) would cause you to question the 9mm chambering to be something else.

What other 9mm would be a reasonable speculation if not 9x19?

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

Bingo.

And purely FYI, no offense intended, it's actually 9x22.5 Steyr. That's the factor which prevents using the 9mm(x22.5) Steyr and the 9(x23) Largo/Bergmann cartridges interchangeably.

Another consideration is the original serial number on the barrel/barrel extension, and the serial number range in which it falls.

Alas, C96 collectors generally have to deal with more ambiguity than do Luger collectors.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Bingo.

And purely FYI, no offense intended, it's actually 9x22.5 Steyr. That's the factor which prevents using the 9mm(x22.5) Steyr and the 9(x23) Largo/Bergmann cartridges interchangeably.

Another consideration is the original serial number on the barrel/barrel extension, and the serial number range in which it falls.

Alas, C96 collectors generally have to deal with more ambiguity than do Luger collectors.

118,xxx is well within the "Red 9" serial number range; as is 133,yyy;
why is this a consideration?

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

118,xxx is well within the "Red 9" serial number range; as is 133,yyy;
why is this a consideration?

Yes sir, that is a correct statement. But this is a C96. Here is what "C96 collector think" looks like:

In what other serial number range does the serial number 118207 fall? What are the distinguishing characteristics of the C96 pistols that bookend that serial number range?

Is there any uncertainty that a "Red Nine" with a serial number of 133855 was delivered as a part of the Imperial German Army contract for C96 pistols chambered for the 9 mmP?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

I was thinking of 9x21, for those countries that ban military chambered firearms.

There are several members here who won't collect re-chambered Lugers because they must conform to their government's regulations.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I can think of two reasons.

9x25 Mauser
9x23 Steyr (with the 'Austrian connection" in mind).

Yes, it could be 9 x anything, but what is the Austrian connection?

Any why either of the above instead of just leaving it in 9x19 ?

Could be 9mm "export" also, but I'm still missing why this particular Red 9 causes speculation of a re-chambering over another similar one?

Ok, the upper is re-numbered to match the lower- and perhaps not by the "Germans". If done by the Spanish 9mm largo makes sense, by the Austrians 9mm Steyr.

After the "war" (either I or II), the Austrians had lots of 9mm Steyr ammo, but also lots of 9mm P was left there too!

But I still am missing the "Austrian" connection. What is it about the pistol that indicates a visit to Austria?

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

--- snip ---
But I still am missing the "Austrian" connection. What is it about the pistol that indicates a visit to Austria?

Don,

With what cartridge this C96 is chambered for established I’ll share what I was thinking the about the potential for an Austrian connection.

Let’s start with the simpler of the two major components, frame.

Frame serial number of 133,855, Red Nine grip panels, and New Safety are consistent with an Imperial Contract C96. But I’m not seeing any Imperial inspection/acceptance stamps. So maybe the frame from an Imperial Contract C96 never delivered to the Imperial German army. We don’t really know how many of the prospective 150,000 contracted Imperial Army 9x19 guns were actually delivered. Some sources go as high as 138,000, other have a low of 130,000. We also don’t know whether the C96s delivered were delivered in serial number order (doubtful, given the likelihood of rejected and reworked/replaced guns). A serial number in the 133,000 range puts this gun in the middle of the not-known-if-delivered C96s.

The barrel extension is much more ambiguous, and this is from whence the potential of an Austrian connection arises.

An original serial number of 118,207 puts the barrel extension in the range of the Imperial Contract, but also puts it in the range of the Pre-War Commercial variations. The absence of an Imperial Army inspection/acceptance stamp on the right barrel increases the chance the barrel/barrel extension is from a Pre-War Commercial and reduces the chances it is from an Imperial Army Contract C96. It would help if the barrel/barrel extension still has the rear sight leaf, but it doesn’t – no help there.

A Pre-War Commercial with a serial number of 118,207, associated with an Imperial Army contract frame, and chambered for a 9 mm cartridge is immediately interesting. Such a gun is right smack in the middle of the serial number range delimited by the known block of Early 9 mm Export variations (lowest noted serial number 84,000 range) and the known block of Late 9 mm Export variations (Highest noted serial number 179,000 range). [see Breathed & Schroeder]

This is why I asked for a picture of the top of the magazine follower. The C96s chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser and 9x19 Parabellum used the same magazine follower. Only those C96s chambered for the 9x25 Mauser required, and came from the factory with, the dished magazine follower.

I was originally of the opinion that this C96 was made up from two different Imperial Army Contract guns, and was factory made for the 9x19 Parabellum. The barrel/barrel extension serial number in the range of 9x25 Mauser and the 9x25 Mauser follower introduced some uncertainty in terms of when it was made and what the barrel/barrel extension was chambered for.

The potential for an Austria connection arises from several different observations, and being able to make those observations requires some knowledge of the 9x25 Mauser cartridge, the potential reasons for its development, some sense of how frequently Austria purchased C96s, and the use of arms chambered for the 9x25 Mauser by the Austrian army and auxiliaries.

This gets more complicated than I have the time or desire to get into. So briefy…

The manner in which the barrel/barrel extension was re-numbered is not consistent with German military or commercial practice. It is something I have seen on Austrian Frankensteins. That’s the first suggestion of an Austrian connection.

Mauser filled some numbers of Austrian contracts during the Great War. The vast majority of these C96s were chambered for the 7.63 Mauser, but some small number of these War Time Commercial and Pre-war Commercial variations delivered to Austria were chambered for the 9x25 Mauser. Austrians also purchased some number of 1930 variation C96s, and examples of Austrian M 1930 variations chambered for the 9x25 Mauser are known to exist (I’ve seen and handled examples). These guns, IMO, had a connection to people serving in the Austrian Army or auxiliaries. I’ve had reports from people (other C96 collectors) that I consider reliable that C96 Model 1930 variants chambered for the 9x22.5 Steyr exist, but I’ve never personally handled one. These 9 mm Steyr C96s would have been associated with the Austria police and auxiliaries.

Google the Austria MP-34 and follow the leads for more information on the Austria usage of the 9x25 Mauser.

So, collectively, a barrel/barrel extension from a serial number range from which C96s were delivered to Austria, re-numbered in a manner not German but seen in Austria re-builds suggests an Austrian connection. The magazine follower from a C96 factory chambered for the 9x25 Mauser in a C96 with a serial number in the Early/Late 9mm Export range, strengthens that suggestion of an Austrian connection and the possibility that the barrel/barrel extension is not chambered for the 9x19.

All of that, in summation, is why I suspected an Austrian connection and recommended a chamber cast.