help required on 1911 byf?

flyboy · 02-07-2011, 11:04 PM

I’m new to your forum, so hello everyone!
I am trying to find out some info on a 1911 luger that has all original part and matching magazine. The overall condition is excellent. What is confusing me is the markings on the top and side say BYF, what I thought meant it was made in 41, or 42. But the barrel markings say 1911 and the sn from the barrel match all the other parts.
If you look carefully, it looks like the original markings where ground off and BYF stamped over. I am trying to find out some kind of history and value to this gun.
Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can give me. I appreciate anyone willing to share their knowledge.

Flyboy.

spartacus38 · 02-07-2011, 11:32 PM

Please post some pictures.
Bob

flyboy · 02-07-2011, 11:49 PM

Will post tommorow morning, pics at work.
Thanks
Collin

lugerholsterrepair · 02-08-2011, 01:21 AM

Collin, from what you describe it is probably not good news. Anything ground off and stamped over pretty much throws the whole pistol into the shooter catagory. This affects the value..
Look forward to your photo's.

flyboy · 02-08-2011, 12:14 PM

Thanks for your help guys.

Collin

alanint · 02-08-2011, 12:40 PM

Although an Erfurt Crown or DWM that was ground off and replaced by a "BYF" sounds intriguing.
As long as it is not simply a replaced BYF toggle link.

flyboy · 02-08-2011, 12:48 PM

http://img233.imageshack.us/i/p1010267bs.jpg/

Couldt post pics for some reason, Maybe to big.
Here is a link and you can scroll through different pictures.

Collin

Vlim · 02-08-2011, 01:05 PM

Hi,

Your pistol is a so-called VoPo variation. Refurbished P08 pistol, using a combination of old and newly made parts, intended for service with the East-German police (Volkspolizei) and NVA.

flyboy · 02-08-2011, 01:52 PM

So it was originally made in 1911 and then refurbished in 41, or 42?
Does it have any real value given its condition, or is it a shooter gun and I should go have fun with it?

flyboy · 02-08-2011, 02:00 PM

On the one side, left side, , there is a bit of the original stamping still there, perhaps the tip of wings. I dont know if this is helpfull.

Collin

Vlim · 02-08-2011, 02:17 PM

Hi,

The refurbishing was done post-war, around 1953. At that time East-Germany started rearming their police force and border guards (the borders were relatively open until 1961). In 1961, when the Berlin Wall was constructed, another wave of rearming followed, but by that time most equipment was either supplied by Russia or produced at their own facilities.

VoPo pistols have long been regarded as 'shooters', but have started to get more collectible the last couple of years. They are a legit sub-variation, but not as highly valued as P08s in their original condition.

mrerick · 02-08-2011, 05:55 PM

Collin,

I think you have a very nice example of a VoPo Luger.

Not sure from photos, but it's likely that if it doesn't have the original finishes, the refinish work looks well done.

The "byf" was originally put on the toggle by it's manufacturer, Mauser. This was the last of the WW-II German ordinance codes for Mauser. Not sure why anyone ground down the rear of the toggle except perhaps to renumber it to the assembled VoPo pistol.

Your receiver was from a 1911 DWM.

The stampings you see on the right side of the receiver are the Imperial German proof and acceptance marks.

When these went through the East German rework process, they were re-stamped with matching numbers. This is because each Luger has to be hand fitted, and from that point on the parts need to stay together.

All in all, I like it. I currently don't have a VoPo, but would like one in this kind of condition. You asked about value. I would estimate around $500-$600. I think that they sold for around $400 when they were imported.

Marc

flyboy · 02-08-2011, 07:43 PM

I purchased it from a customer of mine (nice olderly gentleman) and he has had it for the past 46 years.
He has never refinished it in the time he has had it. I knew just enough about lugers to be dangerous and paid $800.00 for it. The 1911 got me excited (ha!ha!). Thought I would take a change due to it excellent condition.
Thank you to everyone who replyed and was so willing to share their knoledge. I am overweled with all the info you need to know about these guns.

Collin
I am truly greatful.

Vlim · 02-08-2011, 08:53 PM

Hi, if he had it for 46 years, it is one of the pistols that the GDR (East Germany) sold to Interarms for some much needed US Currency. Interarms had no problem buying from 'the enemy' in those days, because the pistols could be passed off as nazi-era P08 pistols. If the state had known that the GDR was the supplier, they probably wouldn't have granted an import license for them.

It just adds to the cold-war experience that these guns represent.

sheepherder · 02-08-2011, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyboy

I purchased it from a customer of mine (nice olderly gentleman) and he has had it for the past 46 years.
He has never refinished it in the time he has had it. I knew just enough about lugers to be dangerous and paid $800.00 for it.

I do not see anything wrong with buying a Russian capture/VOPO refurb Luger. I have just such a P38 and am more than happy with it. While I have read posts about poor finish on some, the few I have seen are refinished quite decently. I don't think the price you paid is too much, considering that it is an arsenal refurbished pistol with a long history.

02-07-2011, 11:04 PM	#1
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	help required on 1911 byf? I’m new to your forum, so hello everyone! I am trying to find out some info on a 1911 luger that has all original part and matching magazine. The overall condition is excellent. What is confusing me is the markings on the top and side say BYF, what I thought meant it was made in 41, or 42. But the barrel markings say 1911 and the sn from the barrel match all the other parts. If you look carefully, it looks like the original markings where ground off and BYF stamped over. I am trying to find out some kind of history and value to this gun. Thanks in advance for any help or direction you can give me. I appreciate anyone willing to share their knowledge. Flyboy.

02-08-2011, 01:21 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Collin, from what you describe it is probably not good news. Anything ground off and stamped over pretty much throws the whole pistol into the shooter catagory. This affects the value.. Look forward to your photo's. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-08-2011, 12:14 PM	#5
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	here are the pics Thanks for your help guys. Collin

02-08-2011, 01:05 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,927 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, Your pistol is a so-called VoPo variation. Refurbished P08 pistol, using a combination of old and newly made parts, intended for service with the East-German police (Volkspolizei) and NVA. Attached Thumbnails

02-08-2011, 05:55 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Collin, I think you have a very nice example of a VoPo Luger. Not sure from photos, but it's likely that if it doesn't have the original finishes, the refinish work looks well done. The "byf" was originally put on the toggle by it's manufacturer, Mauser. This was the last of the WW-II German ordinance codes for Mauser. Not sure why anyone ground down the rear of the toggle except perhaps to renumber it to the assembled VoPo pistol. Your receiver was from a 1911 DWM. The stampings you see on the right side of the receiver are the Imperial German proof and acceptance marks. When these went through the East German rework process, they were re-stamped with matching numbers. This is because each Luger has to be hand fitted, and from that point on the parts need to stay together. All in all, I like it. I currently don't have a VoPo, but would like one in this kind of condition. You asked about value. I would estimate around $500-$600. I think that they sold for around $400 when they were imported. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-07-2011, 11:32 PM	#2
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Please post some pictures. Bob

02-07-2011, 11:49 PM	#3
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Will post tommorow morning, pics at work. Thanks Collin

02-08-2011, 12:40 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Although an Erfurt Crown or DWM that was ground off and replaced by a "BYF" sounds intriguing. As long as it is not simply a replaced BYF toggle link.

02-08-2011, 12:48 PM	#7
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	http://img233.imageshack.us/i/p1010267bs.jpg/ Couldt post pics for some reason, Maybe to big. Here is a link and you can scroll through different pictures. Collin

02-08-2011, 01:52 PM	#9
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So it was originally made in 1911 and then refurbished in 41, or 42? Does it have any real value given its condition, or is it a shooter gun and I should go have fun with it?

02-08-2011, 02:00 PM	#10
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	On the one side, left side, , there is a bit of the original stamping still there, perhaps the tip of wings. I dont know if this is helpfull. Collin

02-08-2011, 02:17 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,927 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, The refurbishing was done post-war, around 1953. At that time East-Germany started rearming their police force and border guards (the borders were relatively open until 1961). In 1961, when the Berlin Wall was constructed, another wave of rearming followed, but by that time most equipment was either supplied by Russia or produced at their own facilities. VoPo pistols have long been regarded as 'shooters', but have started to get more collectible the last couple of years. They are a legit sub-variation, but not as highly valued as P08s in their original condition.

02-08-2011, 07:43 PM	#13
flyboy User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I purchased it from a customer of mine (nice olderly gentleman) and he has had it for the past 46 years. He has never refinished it in the time he has had it. I knew just enough about lugers to be dangerous and paid $800.00 for it. The 1911 got me excited (ha!ha!). Thought I would take a change due to it excellent condition. Thank you to everyone who replyed and was so willing to share their knoledge. I am overweled with all the info you need to know about these guns. Collin I am truly greatful.

02-08-2011, 08:53 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,043 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,927 Times in 1,194 Posts	Hi, if he had it for 46 years, it is one of the pistols that the GDR (East Germany) sold to Interarms for some much needed US Currency. Interarms had no problem buying from 'the enemy' in those days, because the pistols could be passed off as nazi-era P08 pistols. If the state had known that the GDR was the supplier, they probably wouldn't have granted an import license for them. It just adds to the cold-war experience that these guns represent.