1917 Artillery..good or bad?

Evil_Ed · 04-22-2006, 10:26 PM

The local store had (and (I picked it up)...a 1917 marked DWM Artillery. Straw was very good..serial was 42XX, etc. All numbers matched except the magazine, which while it had a wood base, did not have a serial on it... Here's the thing....I'm wondering about a couple things:

The takedown lever in front, while straw, did NOT have the last two digits of the serial engraved on it; it's plain. Is that "normal"?

Also, it had GERMANY engraved under the serial, in block letters. I'm guessing that means it's a Stoeger import but it'd be nice to get confirmation

The finish itself I'd rate at an easy %80+; the muzzle area is worn, as is the front grip strap. There's some minor pitting as well around the grips...clear markings on the frame under the grip panels. The grip panels themselves; left inside one has a P and then off to the side on the other plane an N (or a Z if you look at it on the same plane I guess)..not on the right inside grip panel.

Any thoughts?

I thank you all, very much!!!

Edward Tinker · 04-22-2006, 11:18 PM

not Stoeger import, just importing / exported to an english speaking country.

There should be a suffix under your four digit serial number...

Ed

Evil_Ed · 04-22-2006, 11:30 PM

Nope! Just 42XX and directly under that, GERMANY

That's it...

So I'm guessing imported between WWI and WWII, probably in the 20's...just don't know much else, including it's real value

Edited to fix typos

Frank · 04-23-2006, 11:21 AM

Hi Ed(s), Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, page 15, Table 3 shows no suffix LP.08 Lugers were produced in 1917. Hope this helps.

Evil_Ed · 04-23-2006, 01:50 PM

Frank, thanks! Alas I don't have that book (yet) and finding such info on the net can be at times like searching for the holy grail using two coconuts and a megaphone...

From what I see, the proofs on the right side of the frame match DWM 1914-1918 proof stamps. There's a commercial nitro proofing (I think; N with what looks like a weird crown over it) on the bottom of the barrel above the serial; I'm guessing that was done for export purposes. I don't see any other proofs on the barrel, other than 8,8 and a very weird symol next to that, directly under the N marking...and of course the serial.

The breechblock has the proper eagle stamping....but I don't really know where else to look for proofs and other marks. It looks totally correct.

Also, I did find the number stamped on the take down lever; it's stamped on the bottom of it, if you hold the frame upside-down, you see the last two digits of the serial.

I have a feeling I could study this thing for months and I still wouldn't find all the markings on it

Thanks for all the help!!

Dwight Gruber · 04-23-2006, 02:23 PM

E-Ed,

The commercial c/N proof on the barrel would not necessarily have been done specifically for an export market. Check to see if there is an eagle proof stamped on the right side of the barrel near the receiver, also for the possibility of a c/letter stamp on the left side. If the right-side eagle is not present, the c/N suggests a commercial rebarrel. Check the front edge of the top of the receiver to see if it is notched--relieved--for the back edge of the tangent sight. If it is not, the gun was not originally an Artillery model.

Re-proofing an unmodified military Luger for the commercial market--particularly for out-of-country (US) sale implied by the GERMANY mark-- would be unusual.

The "weird symbol" makes one intensely curious. Any chance of a photograph?

The takedown lever is numbered in the hidden, commercial style, and under the circumstances must be a replacement.

--Dwight

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 08:24 PM

Dwight, the receiver was relieved for the rear sight...

I've taken some photos, hopefully they'll come out ok.

Let's see if it works now..

Click for a larger image (warning, bandwidth intensive on the larger images!)

Photo showing rear sight cut in receiver and left side of barrel:

Photo showing barrel markings on bottom:

Right side of the receiver, receiver markings, and right side of barrel:

Top of the piece, showing date and all that:

Sorry for all the rigamarole, it's been a long day. Hopefully the photos help!

Edward Tinker · 04-25-2006, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil_Ed
No worries about the photos disappearing; I host my own server. No bandwidth limits or paying for photo accounts for me []

Oh good, then you know how to post them on this forum. It is one of the few things I get a bit, picky about... as big ape photos for downloading hurts the many dial up users we have. Thus a limit on photo sizes...

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
Oh good, then you know how to post them on this forum. It is one of the few things I get a bit, picky about... as big ape photos for downloading hurts the many dial up users we have. Thus a limit on photo sizes...

Yep, I didn't realize the "thumbnails" were so large. I saved them with the wrong quality...

Should be fixed, I'll go and edit my previous post with them.

Edward Tinker · 04-25-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Evil_Ed
Yep, I didn't realize the "thumbnails" were so large. I saved them with the wrong quality...

Should be fixed, I'll go and edit my previous post with them.

good to see another techie here ?

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Tinker

good to see another techie here ?

Former techie...now I yell at traders and developers for a living.

Bit more stressful, but a whole lot more fun

And argh, I'm an idiot..typoed the url.

See previous post.

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 08:48 PM

Well, isn't that funny. I couldn't make it out for the life of me staring at it, but looking at the photo, that's "m/m", plain as day. Don't I feel like a dork

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 08:58 PM

Unfortunatly it's out of focus, but if you look at the super-huge image version of photo 1, directly under the serial number, you can see the "GERMANY" stamp.

Dwight Gruber · 04-25-2006, 09:46 PM

E-Ed,

Very good and useful pictures. The lack of an Imperial firing proof on the barrel, and the c/N commercial proof, is good evidence that the barrel was replaced. Interesting, in that proofing and complete barrel marking--proof and caliber measurement-- is not usual for rebarrelled export guns, all the more in that the gun was German commercial proofed in a country in which 9mm caliber and barrels over 3 3/4inches were not permitted by the IMKK regulations from the Treaty of Versailles. The m/m mark is not the customary caliber designation notation.

The right receiver marks are completely as would be expected for an Imperial military DWM Luger fom the middle of 1912 through 1918.

If I had this gun in my hands, I would be looking very closely to see if there is any evidence that the receiver notch was added during rework (also not an expected rework feature), and if there is any evidence that the rear toggle link was modified or replaced.

This is a very cool Luger, which provides the kind of tests of observation and logic which I find really attractive.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 04-25-2006, 10:11 PM

Evil-Ed,

Here is a photo of the milled cut of the notch for an Artillery receiver.

Is the cut on yours shaped like this one shown in the photo ?

p.s. The style of the numbers used on the serial number on your barrel doesot appear to be the style used at the factory at DWM.

John Sabato · 04-25-2006, 10:40 PM

Dwight, good catch on the m/m caliber notation stamp. I have never seen one that did not include 3 digits... (.g. 8,81)

The tolerance range for the barrel is 8,81 to 8,85 according to the 1913 blueprints...

Evil_Ed · 04-25-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
[B]Evil-Ed,

Here is a photo of the milled cut of the notch for an Artillery receiver.

Is the cut on yours shaped like this one shown in the photo ?

Actually, sort of...here's a couple photos, sorry if they aren't as detailed as they should be..lighting here isn't the best.

Again, click on the photo for a very large version of it:

Evil_Ed · 04-26-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dwight Gruber
If I had this gun in my hands, I would be looking very closely to see if there is any evidence that the receiver notch was added during rework (also not an expected rework feature), and if there is any evidence that the rear toggle link was modified or replaced.
[/B]

Dwight, hopefully the photos above shed some light on it..

What do you mean by "rear toggle link was modified or replaced"? What should I be looking for there (if it's not evidenced in one of the photos here, of the top of the piece)..?

I'm not horribly concerned about value; if I got a peach of a piece, great. If I overpaid for a shooter..well, that works out too. At least I can take it to the range and not feel like I'm defacing something

Not to mention the educational benifits!

Everyone, thanks for all the help!

Pete Ebbink · 04-26-2006, 12:58 PM

An original LP-08 rear toggle would not have the integral v-notch rear sight as part of its machining.

Some made-up Artillery's are floating around the USA marketplace that have had a LP-08 barrel and elevated sight added to a regular P-08 4" luger but have had their original rear toggle with the v-notch rear sight left in place. Others have had this v-notch rear sight machined away.

Photos of the top of your rear toggle would be useful. I suspect that is what Dwight is trying to determine for you.

BTW...your photos are a bit dark, but it appears to show a milled receiver cut that could indicate your gun's receiver was originally a DWM LP-08 receiver.

Evil_Ed · 04-26-2006, 01:15 PM

Oh! Well, that makes sense.

I'll try and get some better photos tonight, including grips, the straw, and the full piece as well. Amazingly of all the photos I've taken, not one was of the whole thing at once.

Sorry for the darkness of the photos, it was night outside

You should be able to load them in Microsoft Paint or Photo Editor or some other image-editing software and punch up the gamma..that should lighten it up for you, and make it easier to discern things.

04-22-2006, 10:26 PM	#1
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 Artillery..good or bad? The local store had (and (I picked it up)...a 1917 marked DWM Artillery. Straw was very good..serial was 42XX, etc. All numbers matched except the magazine, which while it had a wood base, did not have a serial on it... Here's the thing....I'm wondering about a couple things: The takedown lever in front, while straw, did NOT have the last two digits of the serial engraved on it; it's plain. Is that "normal"? Also, it had GERMANY engraved under the serial, in block letters. I'm guessing that means it's a Stoeger import but it'd be nice to get confirmation The finish itself I'd rate at an easy %80+; the muzzle area is worn, as is the front grip strap. There's some minor pitting as well around the grips...clear markings on the frame under the grip panels. The grip panels themselves; left inside one has a P and then off to the side on the other plane an N (or a Z if you look at it on the same plane I guess)..not on the right inside grip panel. Any thoughts? I thank you all, very much!!!

04-22-2006, 11:18 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	not Stoeger import, just importing / exported to an english speaking country. There should be a suffix under your four digit serial number... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-25-2006, 10:40 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Dwight, good catch on the m/m caliber notation stamp. I have never seen one that did not include 3 digits... (.g. 8,81) The tolerance range for the barrel is 8,81 to 8,85 according to the 1913 blueprints... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-22-2006, 11:30 PM	#3
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nope! Just 42XX and directly under that, GERMANY That's it... So I'm guessing imported between WWI and WWII, probably in the 20's...just don't know much else, including it's real value Edited to fix typos

04-23-2006, 11:21 AM	#4
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Ed(s), Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, page 15, Table 3 shows no suffix LP.08 Lugers were produced in 1917. Hope this helps.

04-23-2006, 01:50 PM	#5
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Frank, thanks! Alas I don't have that book (yet) and finding such info on the net can be at times like searching for the holy grail using two coconuts and a megaphone... From what I see, the proofs on the right side of the frame match DWM 1914-1918 proof stamps. There's a commercial nitro proofing (I think; N with what looks like a weird crown over it) on the bottom of the barrel above the serial; I'm guessing that was done for export purposes. I don't see any other proofs on the barrel, other than 8,8 and a very weird symol next to that, directly under the N marking...and of course the serial. The breechblock has the proper eagle stamping....but I don't really know where else to look for proofs and other marks. It looks totally correct. Also, I did find the number stamped on the take down lever; it's stamped on the bottom of it, if you hold the frame upside-down, you see the last two digits of the serial. I have a feeling I could study this thing for months and I still wouldn't find all the markings on it Thanks for all the help!!

04-23-2006, 02:23 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	E-Ed, The commercial c/N proof on the barrel would not necessarily have been done specifically for an export market. Check to see if there is an eagle proof stamped on the right side of the barrel near the receiver, also for the possibility of a c/letter stamp on the left side. If the right-side eagle is not present, the c/N suggests a commercial rebarrel. Check the front edge of the top of the receiver to see if it is notched--relieved--for the back edge of the tangent sight. If it is not, the gun was not originally an Artillery model. Re-proofing an unmodified military Luger for the commercial market--particularly for out-of-country (US) sale implied by the GERMANY mark-- would be unusual. The "weird symbol" makes one intensely curious. Any chance of a photograph? The takedown lever is numbered in the hidden, commercial style, and under the circumstances must be a replacement. --Dwight

04-25-2006, 08:24 PM	#7
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, the receiver was relieved for the rear sight... I've taken some photos, hopefully they'll come out ok. Let's see if it works now.. Click for a larger image (warning, bandwidth intensive on the larger images!) Photo showing rear sight cut in receiver and left side of barrel: Photo showing barrel markings on bottom: Right side of the receiver, receiver markings, and right side of barrel: Top of the piece, showing date and all that: Sorry for all the rigamarole, it's been a long day. Hopefully the photos help!

04-25-2006, 08:48 PM	#12
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, isn't that funny. I couldn't make it out for the life of me staring at it, but looking at the photo, that's "m/m", plain as day. Don't I feel like a dork

04-25-2006, 08:58 PM	#13
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfortunatly it's out of focus, but if you look at the super-huge image version of photo 1, directly under the serial number, you can see the "GERMANY" stamp.

04-25-2006, 09:46 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	E-Ed, Very good and useful pictures. The lack of an Imperial firing proof on the barrel, and the c/N commercial proof, is good evidence that the barrel was replaced. Interesting, in that proofing and complete barrel marking--proof and caliber measurement-- is not usual for rebarrelled export guns, all the more in that the gun was German commercial proofed in a country in which 9mm caliber and barrels over 3 3/4inches were not permitted by the IMKK regulations from the Treaty of Versailles. The m/m mark is not the customary caliber designation notation. The right receiver marks are completely as would be expected for an Imperial military DWM Luger fom the middle of 1912 through 1918. If I had this gun in my hands, I would be looking very closely to see if there is any evidence that the receiver notch was added during rework (also not an expected rework feature), and if there is any evidence that the rear toggle link was modified or replaced. This is a very cool Luger, which provides the kind of tests of observation and logic which I find really attractive. --Dwight

04-25-2006, 10:11 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Evil-Ed, Here is a photo of the milled cut of the notch for an Artillery receiver. Is the cut on yours shaped like this one shown in the photo ? p.s. The style of the numbers used on the serial number on your barrel doesot appear to be the style used at the factory at DWM.

04-26-2006, 12:58 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	An original LP-08 rear toggle would not have the integral v-notch rear sight as part of its machining. Some made-up Artillery's are floating around the USA marketplace that have had a LP-08 barrel and elevated sight added to a regular P-08 4" luger but have had their original rear toggle with the v-notch rear sight left in place. Others have had this v-notch rear sight machined away. Photos of the top of your rear toggle would be useful. I suspect that is what Dwight is trying to determine for you. BTW...your photos are a bit dark, but it appears to show a milled receiver cut that could indicate your gun's receiver was originally a DWM LP-08 receiver.

04-26-2006, 01:15 PM	#20
Evil_Ed User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh! Well, that makes sense. I'll try and get some better photos tonight, including grips, the straw, and the full piece as well. Amazingly of all the photos I've taken, not one was of the whole thing at once. Sorry for the darkness of the photos, it was night outside You should be able to load them in Microsoft Paint or Photo Editor or some other image-editing software and punch up the gamma..that should lighten it up for you, and make it easier to discern things.