1917 Artillery..good or bad?
 

The local store had (and (I picked it up)...a 1917 marked DWM Artillery. Straw was very good..serial was 42XX, etc. All numbers matched except the magazine, which while it had a wood base, did not have a serial on it... Here's the thing....I'm wondering about a couple things:

The takedown lever in front, while straw, did NOT have the last two digits of the serial engraved on it; it's plain. Is that "normal"?

Also, it had GERMANY engraved under the serial, in block letters. I'm guessing that means it's a Stoeger import but it'd be nice to get confirmation :)
The finish itself I'd rate at an easy %80+; the muzzle area is worn, as is the front grip strap. There's some minor pitting as well around the grips...clear markings on the frame under the grip panels. The grip panels themselves; left inside one has a P and then off to the side on the other plane an N (or a Z if you look at it on the same plane I guess)..not on the right inside grip panel.

Any thoughts?

I thank you all, very much!!!

not Stoeger import, just importing / exported to an english speaking country.

There should be a suffix under your four digit serial number...



Ed

Nope! Just 42XX and directly under that, GERMANY

That's it...


So I'm guessing imported between WWI and WWII, probably in the 20's...just don't know much else, including it's real value :(


Edited to fix typos

Hi Ed(s), Jan Still's Imperial Lugers, page 15, Table 3 shows no suffix LP.08 Lugers were produced in 1917. Hope this helps. :)

Frank, thanks! Alas I don't have that book (yet) and finding such info on the net can be at times like searching for the holy grail using two coconuts and a megaphone...

From what I see, the proofs on the right side of the frame match DWM 1914-1918 proof stamps. There's a commercial nitro proofing (I think; N with what looks like a weird crown over it) on the bottom of the barrel above the serial; I'm guessing that was done for export purposes. I don't see any other proofs on the barrel, other than 8,8 and a very weird symol next to that, directly under the N marking...and of course the serial.

The breechblock has the proper eagle stamping....but I don't really know where else to look for proofs and other marks. It looks totally correct.

Also, I did find the number stamped on the take down lever; it's stamped on the bottom of it, if you hold the frame upside-down, you see the last two digits of the serial.

I have a feeling I could study this thing for months and I still wouldn't find all the markings on it :)

Thanks for all the help!!

E-Ed,

The commercial c/N proof on the barrel would not necessarily have been done specifically for an export market. Check to see if there is an eagle proof stamped on the right side of the barrel near the receiver, also for the possibility of a c/letter stamp on the left side. If the right-side eagle is not present, the c/N suggests a commercial rebarrel. Check the front edge of the top of the receiver to see if it is notched--relieved--for the back edge of the tangent sight. If it is not, the gun was not originally an Artillery model.

Re-proofing an unmodified military Luger for the commercial market--particularly for out-of-country (US) sale implied by the GERMANY mark-- would be unusual.

The "weird symbol" makes one intensely curious. Any chance of a photograph?

The takedown lever is numbered in the hidden, commercial style, and under the circumstances must be a replacement.

--Dwight

Dwight, the receiver was relieved for the rear sight...

I've taken some photos, hopefully they'll come out ok.

Let's see if it works now..


Click for a larger image (warning, bandwidth intensive on the larger images!)

Photo showing rear sight cut in receiver and left side of barrel:

http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0308-small.JPG

Photo showing barrel markings on bottom:

http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0309-small.jpg

Right side of the receiver, receiver markings, and right side of barrel:

http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0312-small.jpg

Top of the piece, showing date and all that:

http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0314-small.jpg


Sorry for all the rigamarole, it's been a long day. Hopefully the photos help!

Oh good, then you know how to post them on this forum. It is one of the few things I get a bit, picky about... as big ape photos for downloading hurts the many dial up users we have. Thus a limit on photo sizes... ;)

Yep, I didn't realize the "thumbnails" were so large. I saved them with the wrong quality...

Should be fixed, I'll go and edit my previous post with them.

:)


good to see another techie here ? :p

Former techie...now I yell at traders and developers for a living.

Bit more stressful, but a whole lot more fun ;)

And argh, I'm an idiot..typoed the url.

See previous post.

Well, isn't that funny. I couldn't make it out for the life of me staring at it, but looking at the photo, that's "m/m", plain as day. Don't I feel like a dork :)

Unfortunatly it's out of focus, but if you look at the super-huge image version of photo 1, directly under the serial number, you can see the "GERMANY" stamp.

E-Ed,

Very good and useful pictures. The lack of an Imperial firing proof on the barrel, and the c/N commercial proof, is good evidence that the barrel was replaced. Interesting, in that proofing and complete barrel marking--proof and caliber measurement-- is not usual for rebarrelled export guns, all the more in that the gun was German commercial proofed in a country in which 9mm caliber and barrels over 3 3/4inches were not permitted by the IMKK regulations from the Treaty of Versailles. The m/m mark is not the customary caliber designation notation.

The right receiver marks are completely as would be expected for an Imperial military DWM Luger fom the middle of 1912 through 1918.

If I had this gun in my hands, I would be looking very closely to see if there is any evidence that the receiver notch was added during rework (also not an expected rework feature), and if there is any evidence that the rear toggle link was modified or replaced.

This is a very cool Luger, which provides the kind of tests of observation and logic which I find really attractive.

--Dwight

Evil-Ed,


Here is a photo of the milled cut of the notch for an Artillery receiver.

Is the cut on yours shaped like this one shown in the photo ?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/artynotch.jpg

p.s. The style of the numbers used on the serial number on your barrel doesot appear to be the style used at the factory at DWM.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...relnumbers.jpg

Dwight, good catch on the m/m caliber notation stamp. I have never seen one that did not include 3 digits... (.g. 8,81)

The tolerance range for the barrel is 8,81 to 8,85 according to the 1913 blueprints...

Actually, sort of...here's a couple photos, sorry if they aren't as detailed as they should be..lighting here isn't the best.

Again, click on the photo for a very large version of it:


http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0316-small.jpg

http://www.misplaced.net/~obremski/l...0321-small.jpg

Dwight, hopefully the photos above shed some light on it..

What do you mean by "rear toggle link was modified or replaced"? What should I be looking for there (if it's not evidenced in one of the photos here, of the top of the piece)..?

I'm not horribly concerned about value; if I got a peach of a piece, great. If I overpaid for a shooter..well, that works out too. At least I can take it to the range and not feel like I'm defacing something :D

Not to mention the educational benifits!

Everyone, thanks for all the help!

An original LP-08 rear toggle would not have the integral v-notch rear sight as part of its machining.

Some made-up Artillery's are floating around the USA marketplace that have had a LP-08 barrel and elevated sight added to a regular P-08 4" luger but have had their original rear toggle with the v-notch rear sight left in place. Others have had this v-notch rear sight machined away.

Photos of the top of your rear toggle would be useful. I suspect that is what Dwight is trying to determine for you.

BTW...your photos are a bit dark, but it appears to show a milled receiver cut that could indicate your gun's receiver was originally a DWM LP-08 receiver.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/arty_1.jpg

Oh! Well, that makes sense.

I'll try and get some better photos tonight, including grips, the straw, and the full piece as well. Amazingly of all the photos I've taken, not one was of the whole thing at once.

Sorry for the darkness of the photos, it was night outside :) You should be able to load them in Microsoft Paint or Photo Editor or some other image-editing software and punch up the gamma..that should lighten it up for you, and make it easier to discern things.