Need help with .30 bullet selection

[nukem556]

that 100gr Hornady semi-jacket looks very interesting...I'm just putting together a 6in .30 to shoot Sihlouette matches with...with its ogive and weight, it has a pretty good BC, and should handle the 75 and 100 yd targets well, if it groups accurately

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Hugh, to cut right to the chase... what is your favorite .30 Luger powder?? Not load, but just the powder you feel is the most consistant, easiest to load.. in other words, fool proof... (most important quality!).. You too Sieger... ??... best most favorite... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

Hi GT:

For me, its SR 4756.

This has been a great powder for me in both the 7.65mm and 9mm Luger.

I'd like to hear others' opinions, as there is always more load development to be done.

Sieger

[Hugh]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Hugh, to cut right to the chase... what is your favorite .30 Luger powder?? Not load, but just the powder you feel is the most consistant, easiest to load.. in other words, fool proof... (most important quality!).. You too Sieger... ??... best most favorite... Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

Unique seems to be the most consistent and forgiving, although it is a little "dirtier" burning than the others. I just checked my loaded 30 Luger ammo boxes and have 6 boxes of Unique with 60 gr bullets and 1 box of HS7 with 85 gr bullets. I think that 4756 is too slow for 60 gr bullets, but works fine for 95-100 gr.

[CptCurl]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Curl,

The two jams you describe above sound like the typical, annoying "Luger Jam".

Cartridge O.A.L. is critical for positive action function. Your tests for proper O.A.L. should be done before you go the range. For a good explanation of how to determine proper O.A.L., for a new bullet type, please see my thread on "Determining Proper Cartridge O.A.L." in this section of the site. I bet your O.A.L. is too short, but you won't know until you have gone through the pre-firing development stage, then the range test. The original O.A.L.s, of both the 9mm and 7.65mm DWM truncated cone bullets, were right at 1.14 inches (29mm). I have noted that the wider the "flat" on the nose of the bullet, the shorter the proper O.A.L. for proper function. Remembering that the original DWM "flat" was 4mm, you might want to measure the "flat" on your subject bullet. If I were testing, I'd start at 1.15 inches and work down .01 inch at a time until I found perfect function.

Once you have determined the proper O.A.L., for the bullet you are testing, then you are free to move on to the charge development stage. Again, I'd start at about 4.8 grains or so and work up 0.1 of a grain, at a time, until you get perfect action function and accuracy. Accuracy, for me, is three out of three touching at 25 yards, shot off of sand bags.

When the action starts working (with proper hold open) and the groups start tightening, then you are in the range to develop a great load.

I'd be interested in seeing the necks of your fired cases. Do the necks show any pressure signs; for instance, chamber milling marks engraved into the brass?

By the way, your initial load shot through eight one gallon milk jugs?!?. If you would test again, after you are comfortable with your load, I'd really be interested in seeing just how many jugs it takes to actually stop your bullet.

Sieger

Sieger,

I took your advice and lengthened my OAL rather than shorten it. I loaded a batch with the bullet seated for exactly 29mm OAL. I changed nothing else.

The first issue I faced was with the magazine that accompanies my DWM 1920 Commercial "shooter". It's an after-market magazine, brand unknown. Dimensionally it is too short (front to back) to accommodate rounds at 29mm OAL. I can place seven rounds of these longer rounds in this magazine, but it will not accept the eighth round. So I tried an original DWM magazine. They fit perfectly. Also with a WW2 military magazine. Therefore, I did my shooting this afternoon using these two magazines and not the after-market one.

The pistol functioned flawlessly over two full magazines.

Accuracy was somewhat disappointing, but I must confess my less than stellar ability with the Luger's spongy trigger pull.

You were certainly spot-on as to OAL.

More later.

Curl

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

Sieger,

I took your advice and lengthened my OAL rather than shorten it. I loaded a batch with the bullet seated for exactly 29mm OAL. I changed nothing else.

The first issue I faced was with the magazine that accompanies my DWM 1920 Commercial "shooter". It's an after-market magazine, brand unknown. Dimensionally it is too short (front to back) to accommodate rounds at 29mm OAL. I can place seven rounds of these longer rounds in this magazine, but it will not accept the eighth round. So I tried an original DWM magazine. They fit perfectly. Also with a WW2 military magazine. Therefore, I did my shooting this afternoon using these two magazines and not the after-market one.

The pistol functioned flawlessly over two full magazines.

Accuracy was somewhat disappointing, but I must confess my less than stellar ability with the Luger's spongy trigger pull.

You were certainly spot-on as to OAL.

More later.

Curl

Curl,

Your 1923 Commercial should have one of the better Luger triggers, as my 1920 Commercial has a really great one!

The "pull" of the Luger trigger is somewhat similar to the Mauser rifle triggers of the same period. It is a "double pull" trigger; that is, there is quite a bit of slack to be taken up before you reach the "solid" part of the pull. On my 1920's trigger, the slack is somewhat reduced over what I've typically experienced with a military 9mm Luger.

After you have taken up the slack, then you have to address the actual "breaking point" of the trigger. Here is how I have mastered it. With the tip of your index trigger finger, place it as low as possible on the trigger, while aligning the trigger in the middle of the top digit of your trigger finger. Do not touch the trigger or trigger guard with any other part of your trigger finger. Load up some primed only casings and practice your trigger pull. It takes just a bit of training, once you have examined how the trigger "breaks" and have adjusted your pull accordingly. If your pistol is a true "shooter" you may also want to give your sear and firing pin contact points a good polishing, as this will aid in smoothing up your "breaking point".

One note on reliable Luger function. With proper springs, both magazine and recoil, proper cartridge O.A.L. and proper powder type and charge, a Luger will function flawlessly. With my handloads, my 1941 byf has fired over 3,000 rounds with no malfunctions, whatsoever.

Hope this helps!

Sieger

P.S.: It's the last 1/10th of a grain that makes all of the difference!!!

[CptCurl]

Sieger,

Good advice on trigger control. That's basically what I do. I'm just spoiled because most of my pistol shooting is with a Colt Woodsman, a Colt National Match, or a S&W Model 41. Oh! Such luxuries!

Curl

[CptCurl]

Back to my loading, there's one point that was on my mind and I should mention. Obviously I changed not just one, but two variables. I brought the OAL to 29mm, thus changing the load, but I also substituted two magazines for the one I used before.

I cannot say whether the several malfunctions I experienced before would be attributable to the magazine or to the load.

The one thing I can say is this load with OAL of 29mm performed flawlessly in my DWM 1923 (or 1920) Commercial when using an original DWM Commercial magazine and also when using a WW2 magazine.

I'll report more as developments occur.

Curl

P.S. That reminds me I promised to post photos of my nice DWM Commercial with two original magazines and "half a box". I haven't forgotten. I'll do so as time permits the photography. I'll also post photos of my DWM Commercial "shooter" which is a really nice example too (save for one issue to be revealed).

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

Back to my loading, there's one point that was on my mind and I should mention. Obviously I changed not just one, but two variables. I brought the OAL to 29mm, thus changing the load, but I also substituted two magazines for the one I used before.

I cannot say whether the several malfunctions I experienced before would be attributable to the magazine or to the load.

The one thing I can say is this load with OAL of 29mm performed flawlessly in my DWM 1923 (or 1920) Commercial when using an original DWM Commercial magazine and also when using a WW2 magazine.

I'll report more as developments occur.

Curl

P.S. That reminds me I promised to post photos of my nice DWM Commercial with two original magazines and "half a box". I haven't forgotten. I'll do so as time permits the photography. I'll also post photos of my DWM Commercial "shooter" which is a really nice example too (save for one issue to be revealed).

Curl,

Hope all is well there in Virginia. Lousia County Va. was the center of it all, as it was reported up here in NYC. Strangely, I spent quite a few Summer weekends in Louisa in the early to mid 1970s, as a friend's family owned a large farm there.

Well, back to the Luger shooting adventure.

Your earlier malfunctions were caused by improper cartridge O.A.L. for the magazine you were shooting. With original, in spec. magazines, you now have the proper cartridge O.A.L. to function your pistol flawlessly.

If you want an in spec., good quality, trustworthy, aftermarket magazine, buy yourself a few Mec-Gar magazines. These are made in Italy, and are the best quality commercially available at this time. For a really great magazine, have our own G.T. tune a Mec-Gar up for you with one of his in spec. magazine springs. You won't be sorry you spent the money!!

Here is how to find your accuracy load for your 7.65mm. Start very low. Load up one cartridge, each, for these low loads until your load just activates the hold open device. This is the bottom end of the "relative range". It's important to know your bottom end charge; the one that will just activate the hold open. Contrary to popular belief, Lugers, generally, do not shoot best with "hot" charges. If you keep increasing your charge, you will come to a point where your charge "out runs" your springs and you will again experience the exact same "Luger Jam".

With that established, now start advancing your charges 1/10th of a grain, but you must load a full magazine with the same charge. Fire all eight, note your function and accuracy, move up 1/10th and load another eight, fire all eight again and note your function and accuracy. Repeat this procedure until your groups start to tighten up. You will know when to stop, as your groups will start to widen again.

For accuracy, shoot from over a sandbag rest. This will give you a good, solid platform for repeatability.

I'd start at about 4.8 grs of SR 4756 and move up to the mid to high 5's.

Hope this helps!!

Sieger

[CptCurl]

Sieger,

I was in a faculty meeting at Virginia Military Institute in Lexington, VA when the quake hit. We got shaken pretty well, but nothing seemed to be damaged there. The tremors lasted for a remarkably long time. There wasn't anything subtle about it.

Read some reports from Central Virginia this morning. Some folks experienced substantial damage there.

Good advice on the load work-up.

Curl

[CptCurl]

It's amazing the years that have gone by since the last posts to this thread. Doesn't seem that long.

I'm back to the loading bench with the 7.65mm Parabellum. There have been some changes since my last dabble with this little round. The DWM 7.65mm Luger I was shooting back then is gone. A friend talked me out of it. In its place I have a super nice DWM 1920 Commercial. I had this pistol back then, but I wasn't shooting it. It's almost like new. The other was more of a "shooter" in terms of condition. Through the intervening years I haven't been shooting the little 7.65mm.

Within the past year I bought a Sig P210 chambered in 7.65mm. Why, I don't know. I already had one in 9mm. This hobby is a sickness!

Not long after I got it, I took the Sig to my range with some of the ammo I had loaded back in 2011. These rounds were loaded with the Rainier plated 100 gr. .312" bullets. I quickly found this loading was not going to work. The neck dimensions of the Sig chamber are too small to take a cartridge loaded with a .312" bullet. Out of curiosity I tried them in my other DWM and found it was too tight also. They had fit perfectly in the DWM I was shooting back in 2011. It shows you must be alert to any changes.

I bought a .309" Lee push-through sizing die. Today I shoved 20 of the Rainier bullets through the sizing die and found they came out with a diameter of .3095". Perfect! As an aside, I had lubed the bullets with anhydrous lanolin to easy their journey through the die.

Just now I have loaded several rounds using once-fired Fiocci brass, a Remington small pistol primer, 5.2 grains of SR4756, and my re-sized bullets seated to 29mm = 1.142" OAL. These fit the chamber of my Sig perfectly and also fit its magazine. I haven't tried them for fit in the Luger, but I fully expect them to fit perfectly there also.

My plans are to try them at the range tomorrow. Stay tuned!

Curl

[Rick W.]

I am beginning to see some new imports on the original Swiss P210's now, 2-3 thousand range. Not bellied up to the bar yet, but is enticing; these were 9's. Of course, we all want a 22lr, but few and far between it seems. Nicely made pistol, lucky you own one. I have an American P210, it shoots ok, but the quality is down a little compared to the old Swiss made ones to me, my opinion there.

As I recall, and you better check me out on the SAAMI site on dimensional info for the 30 Luger on this side of the big pond, think the neck is 332. One would suspect that the European version might be tighter, I just do not know.

I ran into the 30 Luger tight neck jazz when I was too poor to buy the nicer 308-309 jacketed bullets, and had to buy jacketed 312's for the 30 Luger application. I took Hugh's advice and bought a Lee sizer like you did in 309, seemed to work nice.

If you have some fired rounds from your SIGer, measure the brass at the neck, and take 1 away to see that space number. You as a handloader have to decide what is right for you, but as you know, you gotta be able to let go of the bullet in all firing instances.

I have a SAAMI 30 Luger chamber reamer that I use for new barrels, mainly remington 700 takeoffs, and chamber full length and in a shorter length to be able to use 9mmx19 brass, the old wildcat was noted here on this forum some years ago. No scurrying around for the quarter brass anymore, 9mm's are a penny or two apiece here.

My indoor range nearby only allows plated or jacketed ammo. So to shoot a lot, I had to learn about plated bullets for plinking there, they act differently than the jacketed bullets, but do ok with some care during the reloading cycle. I find that the plated bullet is not the equal in accuracy of the other two types of bullets, but with these eyes it does not matter anymore.

You might check the fired o.d. of a 30 luger case and do the numbers to see if it is ok with you or not. As a handloader, you know about variations in brass neck wall thicknesses etc from lot to lot and from mfg to mfg.

[DonVoigt]

There are one or two other threads on the .30 cal projectiles, will probably come up with a search- though they could be on the other luger forum.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

It's amazing the years that have gone by since the last posts to this thread. Doesn't seem that long.

I'm back to the loading bench with the 7.65mm Parabellum. There have been some changes since my last dabble with this little round. The DWM 7.65mm Luger I was shooting back then is gone. A friend talked me out of it. In its place I have a super nice DWM 1920 Commercial. I had this pistol back then, but I wasn't shooting it. It's almost like new. The other was more of a "shooter" in terms of condition. Through the intervening years I haven't been shooting the little 7.65mm.

Within the past year I bought a Sig P210 chambered in 7.65mm. Why, I don't know. I already had one in 9mm. This hobby is a sickness!

Not long after I got it, I took the Sig to my range with some of the ammo I had loaded back in 2011. These rounds were loaded with the Rainier plated 100 gr. .312" bullets. I quickly found this loading was not going to work. The neck dimensions of the Sig chamber are too small to take a cartridge loaded with a .312" bullet. Out of curiosity I tried them in my other DWM and found it was too tight also. They had fit perfectly in the DWM I was shooting back in 2011. It shows you must be alert to any changes.

I bought a .309" Lee push-through sizing die. Today I shoved 20 of the Rainier bullets through the sizing die and found they came out with a diameter of .3095". Perfect! As an aside, I had lubed the bullets with anhydrous lanolin to easy their journey through the die.

Just now I have loaded several rounds using once-fired Fiocci brass, a Remington small pistol primer, 5.2 grains of SR4756, and my re-sized bullets seated to 29mm = 1.142" OAL. These fit the chamber of my Sig perfectly and also fit its magazine. I haven't tried them for fit in the Luger, but I fully expect them to fit perfectly there also.

My plans are to try them at the range tomorrow. Stay tuned!

Curl

Hi Curl,

Your powder and charge weight look about right to me, though you might want to ladder down or up 1/10 of a grain at a time to assure excellent accuracy and perfect function.

Recently, here on the board, another handloader (Scutzenbob) found 1.58 lnches to be the correct O.A.L for a Luger with these specific bullets; though regular DWM 7.65 truncated cone bullets, were, indeed, loaded to 29mms. If 29mms of O.A.L. is working well for you with these specific bullets, I'm surely not one to argue with success!

As stated in my previous postings above, the .312s chambered and fired perfectly for me in my 7.65 Luger. They did the same for Schutzenbob. For his load workup, he used Winchester WSF powder with much success.

Enjoy that new Sig!!


Sieger

[CptCurl]

I also bought two boxes of the Hornady 100 grain .309" XTP bullets (#31000) that I plan to try.

The worst thing about this project is chasing the brass. 9mm is so cheap I just let the brass fly. Not so with the 7.65mm.

Curl

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

I also bought two boxes of the Hornady 100 grain .309" XTP bullets (#31000) that I plan to try.

The worst thing about this project is chasing the brass. 9mm is so cheap I just let the brass fly. Not so with the 7.65mm.

Curl

Curl,

If you don't like chasing pistol brass and are not really shooting a high volume of it anyway, consider just letting it fly.

Why worry yourself over, really, nothing?


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Curl,

If you don't like chasing pistol brass and are not really shooting a high volume of it anyway, consider just letting it fly.

Why worry yourself over, really, nothing?


Sieger

Or spread a tarp or cloth out in the area where most/many of your empties land, then they are easy to gather up and stay cleaner.

[Rick W.]

I now shoot "some" real 30 Luger, and a lot of 7.65x19(9mmx19 necked up to 30 caliber wildcat); both in Lugers. The wildcat is in my own barrels fwiw.

My only range at this time is an indoor range near the house. They let me shoot for free Mon-Fri because of their recognition of my previous lifestyle. A fairly tight group as to safety etc, needless to say is a public range with range officers etc. So you get to shoot, but no extras as to trying to save brass, tables, cameras etc. You can run a sock if you want, but has to be the right sock and right gun sorta speak.

Life has been reasonable to me in many respects. I would not think that my friends or enemies think I am a tightwad, but leaving a ten spot or more on the floor for every box of 30 Luger shot; just is not in me. If you shoot a lot, maybe more meaningful, than just shooting a box a year or so.

I am limiting my shooting of vintage 30 Luger pistols, especially like the 1906 with the 4 3/4; and my bunch of shooting sorta speak with a 30 is always with the above mentioned wildcat. You know, I still pick up all the empties that I can, as there is a forming process to the madness/enjoyment.

I can buy once fired 9mm for 1 or 2 cents per case locally, hence the move to the wildcat on my part. I am lucky that I can do my own work with rebarreling etc; so that cost to me is nothing. My time is free and retiring at 50 says I am right glad of it.....

Sometimes 9x23 is available reasonable, easy to make 30 Luger from such; nicer than from 38 super.

So I am a kindred spirit about loosing 30 Luger brass and moreso in loosing 357 automag brass, especially the norma stuff.

Enjoy the 30, I have shot that 309 jacketed bullet some and seemed to play in my pistols; just a touch expensive to multi-box excursions; but us poor rabbits have to have gas money too.

[Major Tom]

I have loaded and shot the Hornady XTP .309 bullet. Works just fine. I also use a steel Swiss made .309 bullet too that was made for the 30 luger.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Or spread a tarp or cloth out in the area where most/many of your empties land, then they are easy to gather up and stay cleaner.

Don,

That sure worked for me with 8mm Nambu brass.


Sieger

[CptCurl]

Originally Posted by CptCurl

. . .

Just now I have loaded several rounds using once-fired Fiocci brass, a Remington small pistol primer, 5.2 grains of SR4756, and my re-sized bullets seated to 29mm = 1.142" OAL. These fit the chamber of my Sig perfectly and also fit its magazine. I haven't tried them for fit in the Luger, but I fully expect them to fit perfectly there also.

. . .

Curl

I finally got to my range this afternoon. It was a beautiful day, with crappy weather coming tomorrow.

I fired the Sig with the rounds I loaded and compared with factory loaded Fiocchi ammo. My loads performed perfectly and yielded as good accuracy as the factory ammo.

Next I'll try them in my DWM Luger.

No I don't like searching for brass, but I do like putting together good ammunition. There's a tradeoff. The tarp suggestion is a good possibility.

More info as the situation develops.

Curl