SS Luger at Collectors Firearms - Page 2

4 Scale · 03-02-2015, 03:10 PM

Page 232 and 233 of "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon discusses Death's Head Rework.

One of the comments on page 232 is "The death's head is thought by most collectors to be the insignia of the SS wing of the early (1930-33) Nazi party"(fair use excerpt).

On page 43 of the same work, a "Death Head" proof mark appears, stating that the mark is found on "a few early Nazi era reworks (1930-1933 period)", (also a fair use excerpt). The proof marked in the Kenyon book appears to be the same proof that appears on the two pistols on the Simpson website.

This would seem to indicate there is at least a variance of opinion concerning the existence and use of this marking. I do note that a couple of posters including Ed have suggested there is at least a possibility that the markings are authentic.

My opinion of Simpson's has not dropped, given the reference I read. I consider the matter unsettled. Should any of those opining on the matter in this thread wish to quote authoritative support for their views that the markings on the two pistols at Simpsons are bogus, and should be known by Simpson's to be bogus, that would be interesting.

I have also found Simpson's to be careful and to retrieve the pistol from inventory and discuss it in detail when a caller inquires. I therefore second Ed's suggestion that those who feel the proof is bogus discuss their concerns direct with the retailer before publicly castigating them.

sheepherder · 03-02-2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Page 232 and 233 of "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon discusses Death's Head Rework.

Datig, Jones, and Sturgess & Gortz also discuss the Totenkopf Lugers. I am one of the few who believe there are 'real' Totenkopf Lugers, and that they were borne by the Freikorps.

Quote:

I therefore second Ed's suggestion that those who feel the proof is bogus discuss their concerns direct with the retailer before publicly castigating them.

The issue here is not whether they are 'real' or fakes but that there is no way to prove their authenticity or even their origins. IMHO, any seller should make an effort [the 'disclaimer'] to let the buyer know that. To definitively state that it is an 'SS' Luger is misleading.

It's not my job to police the Internet. I'll do my complaining with my wallet.

ChadC · 03-02-2015, 04:21 PM

Thanks for the discussion. I have learned a lot reading replies.

4 Scale · 03-02-2015, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Datig, Jones, and Sturgess & Gortz also discuss the Totenkopf Lugers. I am one of the few who believe there are 'real' Totenkopf Lugers, and that they were borne by the Freikorps.

Thanks, I appreciate the references and will look for the issue in those works as I acquire them, it is a very interesting marking and worthy of study.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

issue here is not whether they are 'real' or fakes

Several posters have declared without qualification that it is impossible for the markings to be real, so I am puzzled by your comment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

...there is no way to prove their authenticity (of the markings)...any seller should make an effort to let the buyer know that...

Applies to any marking I would think. That these markings seem to be exceptionally rare is more the issue. Personally, I don't want to read a site cluttered with disclaimers. IMO it is incumbent on Simpsons to accurately disclose what they have. Until evidence is presented that they have not fulfilled that duty, I must conclude that they have, given their reputation and my own dealings with them.

I don't know enough about the issue to differ with your most recent statement that Simpson's should have included disclaimer language. While more disclosure is generally better, it would seem that many Lugers on their site might potentially have faked markings. Where does one draw the line it what their disclosure should be regarding the possibility of fakery?

Absent other evidence, I will assume that Simpsons carefully examined the markings and found no evidence of fakery. Given the premium pricing of the pistols being discussed IMO it is incumbent on the buyer to conduct whatever investigation they feel they need.

4 Scale · 03-02-2015, 06:21 PM

Lest the thread become too serious, here is a Luger that we can all agree on in terms of authenticity.

Do not be deceived by your eyes, which may suggest this is a defaced 1920 commercial.30 Luger firearm. No - this is the very rare "Panzer Luger", offered as as "GI bring-back" on Gunbroker. This thing has actually been for sale for weeks.

sheepherder · 03-02-2015, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Lest the thread become too serious...

Are you serious about buying an SS Luger??? If so, there is a guy in Prior Lake MN that has an actual verified SS Luger previously owned by Ralph Shattuck and comes with a Letter Of Authentication signed by Ralph. It's too expensive for me. He & Ralph were close friends and business associates. There was a pic of the Luger and the letter posted here some time back...

Anyway, you can't go wrong with that one.

4 Scale · 03-02-2015, 08:39 PM

No I am not serious about buying an SS Luger or any other rare variation, I'm having too much fun with garden-variety DWM and Mauser military models. I just find the comments of experienced collectors very interesting.

SS/Death's Head Lugers seem like Bigfoot - some say no such thing, others hold varying different views. I have no real opinion on the matter, but enjoy hearing from those who do. However if I suddenly decided to become an SS Luger Collector - assuming the "Panzer Luger" is no longer available - I will hunt down the Luger you mention!!

steven c · 03-02-2015, 09:39 PM

The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head.

Also P under SN. And slide numbered with no Suffix

George Anderson · 03-03-2015, 09:08 AM

Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus.

John Sabato · 03-03-2015, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Lest the thread become too serious, here is a Luger that we can all agree on in terms of authenticity.

Do not be deceived by your eyes, which may suggest this is a defaced 1920 commercial.30 Luger firearm. No - this is the very rare "Panzer Luger", offered as as "GI bring-back" on Gunbroker. This thing has actually been for sale for weeks.

I love the precision inletting that was performed on the grips to place the skull & crossbones!

Looks like it was done with a BAYONET!

alanint · 03-03-2015, 11:19 AM

There is never any effort spared in ruining a nice collectable!

Blight · 03-08-2015, 12:24 PM

That "Panzer Luger" is comedy gold. People crack me up. I'm a complete novice and it looks fake to me.

The shmuck might as well have sharpied "tOTtally bADDasS PANZER looger -Adolph Hitler" on it.

Sergio Natali · 03-08-2015, 12:51 PM

"Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus."

I agree

The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head.

I agree, a skull doesn't mean that the gun belonged to the SS at all!

the precision inletting that was performed on the grips to place the skull & crossbones!
Looks like it was done with a BAYONET!

I agree as well.

Sergio

Arizona Slim · 03-08-2015, 02:01 PM

From what little I know about Simpson's I think they are a reputable company and I believe Brad Simpson may also be a member of this forum. To give him the benefit of the doubt I would like to think that he has not fully examined this Luger and will make the appropriate changes in the discription and price once he becomes aware of it's shortcomings.
Lon

Nomadr · 03-08-2015, 07:44 PM

Now on HOLD! As P. T. Barnum once said...

I think It's sad Simpson wouldn't have a problem selling such an obvious fake!

Bob

sheepherder · 04-02-2015, 09:42 AM

On the off-topic discussion of Simpson's descriptions of controversial Lugers, I came across this thread today while looking for something totally different...It concerns a Spandau Luger being sold [back then] by Simpson's...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=15331

Again, my dealings with Simpson's has been positive. I bought my 1900AE from Floyd at Simpsons, and made several offers on a C96 Mauser barrel/extension that Simpson's offered as being 'bent'. I would buy from them again.

I was not aware of the rule or law [whatever] that a consigned item retain the consignor's description. Disclaimers or notes about the item from the consignment house are discouraged???

Adding to or editing consignor's description is not allowed??? Legal issues maybe???

Very confusing...

03-02-2015, 06:21 PM	#25
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Lest the thread become too serious, here is a Luger that we can all agree on in terms of authenticity. Do not be deceived by your eyes, which may suggest this is a defaced 1920 commercial.30 Luger firearm. No - this is the very rare "Panzer Luger", offered as as "GI bring-back" on Gunbroker. This thing has actually been for sale for weeks. Attached Thumbnails

03-02-2015, 09:39 PM	#28
steven c User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: texas Posts: 60 Thanks: 15 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head. Also P under SN. And slide numbered with no Suffix Attached Thumbnails __________________ Looking for walther PP mag #981029

03-08-2015, 12:51 PM	#33
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	"Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus." I agree The only pistols that I know of that can be verified SS are the Walther PP/PPK and not by runes stamps or death-head. I agree, a skull doesn't mean that the gun belonged to the SS at all! the precision inletting that was performed on the grips to place the skull & crossbones! Looks like it was done with a BAYONET! I agree as well. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

04-02-2015, 09:42 AM	#36
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	On the off-topic discussion of Simpson's descriptions of controversial Lugers, I came across this thread today while looking for something totally different...It concerns a Spandau Luger being sold [back then] by Simpson's... http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=15331 Again, my dealings with Simpson's has been positive. I bought my 1900AE from Floyd at Simpsons, and made several offers on a C96 Mauser barrel/extension that Simpson's offered as being 'bent'. I would buy from them again. I was not aware of the rule or law [whatever] that a consigned item retain the consignor's description. Disclaimers or notes about the item from the consignment house are discouraged??? Adding to or editing consignor's description is not allowed??? Legal issues maybe??? Very confusing... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-02-2015, 03:10 PM	#21
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Page 232 and 233 of "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon discusses Death's Head Rework. One of the comments on page 232 is "The death's head is thought by most collectors to be the insignia of the SS wing of the early (1930-33) Nazi party"(fair use excerpt). On page 43 of the same work, a "Death Head" proof mark appears, stating that the mark is found on "a few early Nazi era reworks (1930-1933 period)", (also a fair use excerpt). The proof marked in the Kenyon book appears to be the same proof that appears on the two pistols on the Simpson website. This would seem to indicate there is at least a variance of opinion concerning the existence and use of this marking. I do note that a couple of posters including Ed have suggested there is at least a possibility that the markings are authentic. My opinion of Simpson's has not dropped, given the reference I read. I consider the matter unsettled. Should any of those opining on the matter in this thread wish to quote authoritative support for their views that the markings on the two pistols at Simpsons are bogus, and should be known by Simpson's to be bogus, that would be interesting. I have also found Simpson's to be careful and to retrieve the pistol from inventory and discuss it in detail when a caller inquires. I therefore second Ed's suggestion that those who feel the proof is bogus discuss their concerns direct with the retailer before publicly castigating them.

03-02-2015, 04:21 PM	#23
ChadC User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks for the discussion. I have learned a lot reading replies.

03-02-2015, 08:39 PM	#27
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	No I am not serious about buying an SS Luger or any other rare variation, I'm having too much fun with garden-variety DWM and Mauser military models. I just find the comments of experienced collectors very interesting. SS/Death's Head Lugers seem like Bigfoot - some say no such thing, others hold varying different views. I have no real opinion on the matter, but enjoy hearing from those who do. However if I suddenly decided to become an SS Luger Collector - assuming the "Panzer Luger" is no longer available - I will hunt down the Luger you mention!!

03-03-2015, 09:08 AM	#29
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Regardless of what Kenyon published, the SS marked Luger is absolutely bogus.

03-03-2015, 11:19 AM	#31
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	There is never any effort spared in ruining a nice collectable!

03-08-2015, 12:24 PM	#32
Blight User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 17 Thanks: 5 Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts	That "Panzer Luger" is comedy gold. People crack me up. I'm a complete novice and it looks fake to me. The shmuck might as well have sharpied "tOTtally bADDasS PANZER looger -Adolph Hitler" on it.

03-08-2015, 02:01 PM	#34
Arizona Slim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 706 Thanks: 1,026 Thanked 409 Times in 225 Posts	From what little I know about Simpson's I think they are a reputable company and I believe Brad Simpson may also be a member of this forum. To give him the benefit of the doubt I would like to think that he has not fully examined this Luger and will make the appropriate changes in the discription and price once he becomes aware of it's shortcomings. Lon

03-08-2015, 07:44 PM	#35
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Now on HOLD! As P. T. Barnum once said... I think It's sad Simpson wouldn't have a problem selling such an obvious fake! Bob