New collector pitfalls

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


I must strongly (and cordially) disagree with your comment, "One thing we should be able to agree upon as collectors/historians/shooters/Luger lovers is the difference, and it is significant, between all matching serial numbers and 100% original."


In Luger collecting originality is demonstrated by matching numbers. That's the only value to a collector of matching numbers. It is also the only value matching numbers has to a shooter - it shows all the parts have been correctly fitted to each other and the pistol is functional. In "collector speak", "matching" is a verbal shorthand for "all original".


"Matching" dos not preclude a pistol from having been repaired in service, or from having parts replaced during that process, and it is frequently possible to recognize a Luger where this has been done. If the repair was something serious, the pistol would require re-proof and a second proof mark will appear on barrel, barrel extension, and breechblock. If only two out of three of these parts have the second proof mark, we can identify the part with only one proof mark as the replaced part


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Actually there are several ways to tell if a part has been substituted. While detecting this kind of fakery is seldom easy, it is also seldom impossible. It just takes a great deal of knowledge and practice and a good eye.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Marvin,


Right on target! The company in Texas isn't the only one - fakery is a big and growing business. There are even, for the do-it-yourself fakers, compete die sets to stamp any number, proof, or inspection mark offered for sale.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Your answer caused no confusion unless it was you who was confused in your assumption that all US military collectibles are a mass of mixed parts.

[Dok]

is an agreement on the part of all Luger gunsmiths and reworkers, that any part that is replaced will bear a small "hallmark", not visible except on close inspection, that will "certify" that this IS NOT an original part.

[Kyrie]

Hi Dok!


This is the kind of thing museums do if they alter an exhibit so it appears more correct. They will frequently stamp or engrave the word "REPRODUCTION" someplace unobtrusive. It probably took museum director years to arrive at the same solution you did in a few minutes


Very best,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Johnny,


I intend no offense, but respectfully request you consider that acrimony and hostility are generally counterproductive to the goal of sharing information and experience.


Regards,


Kyrie

[Dean Dennis]

If as you say it's impossible to recognize the "original" #21 holdopen in a crowd then it must also be impossible to recognize an unoriginal one and the whole discussion becomes a little ludicrous. How do you know the whole gun wasn't mismatched at the factory since the parts can't as you say be recognized? If original can't be told from unoriginal it really only matters to the collectors who are trying to make their one gun unique from all the other hundreds made "identical" to theirs.

[Dok]

and leave sarcasm and personal attacks for other forums.


WEBMASTER

[Johnny Peppers]

From the tone of this thread, I don't believe that this was started as an educational experience for anyone. I don't believe that there is anyone on this forum that doesn't have their own strong opinions on whether it is right or wrong to replace mismatched parts. When you start a controversial thread you cannot expect everyone to be in 100% agreement, and the posts have a way of getting out of hand when you try to reply to everyone that is not in total agreement with the original post. If a Luger with a replaced part is a fake in your opinion, that was stated that in the original post, and it could have been left at that.

Kyrie, I, like Dok, am more of a shooter than a "collector". I use the "" because there are varying degrees of collectors. But I would like to put this question to your values: If the my Luger is a import, and stamped as such, does your opinion still remain as ridgid?

[Kyrie]

Hi Dean,


Alas, very little about collecting Lugers is simple :-(


It's not that "...it's impossible to recognize the "original" #21 holdopen in a crowd" or that "then it must also be impossible to recognize an unoriginal one...".


It's:


1) Impossible to *find* the original hold open as they were generally only removed when broken or too worn, or were removed with all the rest of the salvageable parts from a pistol that was beyond repair. The original hold open is most likely gone - destroyed long ago.


2) It is possible, in most cases, to detect a fake that has been created by swapping parts.


3) Even if the original hold open was still serviceable and existed somewhere in the world, it's wishful thinking that the first hold open one comes across with the number "21" happens to be the single and only hold open number "21" that went with the pistol one has. Think of it as finding a lottery ticket on the street for next week's drawing. Would anyone then spend all their money and take out enormous loans in the reasonable belief that he had found the winning ticket? This may seem like a silly comparison, but the odds aren't that different :-(


Try thinking of it this way. Suppose, purely for the sake of discussion, that you had ten Lugers all with the number "21" as the last two digits of the serial number and all had mismatched hold opens. If you were then to find a hold open with the number "21", which pistol would it belong with?


I hope this helps get a feel for the situation.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[BILL]

This is turning into a really divisive thread. Y'all can continue with it, we have seen it before but you gotta ask yourself: is it going to change anything? This is a great forum, unfortunate if it polarizes us. 'nuff said. BILL

[Kyrie]

Hi Bob!


Alas, while the views I've expressed are my opinions, they also reflect the economic reality of Luger collecting and you will hear much the same from most established Luger collectors. Value is determined by originality, variation, and condition pretty much in that order. Making any Luger look like something it is not, whether this is done by creating a false image of originality (by parts swapping or some other method), or a false image of variation (again by parts swapping or altering the markings), or a false image of condition (by rebluing or other things) are all equally frowned upon.


Concerning the presence of importation markings, this is really a separate question. The requirement that newly imported firearms must be import marked has created a two-tier market. An all original Luger that is import marked is worth less than the same Luger that is not import marked. But both of these Lugers would be worth more than yet another Luger that is exactly the same as both of these, but is not all original.


There are actually a third and a fourth question lurking here and I'm a bit surprise no one has brought it up. How about the case where a Luger has two mismatched parts and one replaces only one with a part that appears to match? And how about a replacing a mismatched part with a part that has the "correct" number, but the number itself is obviously incorrect (obviously too large, too obviously too small, placed incorrectly, and so on)?


In the first case the Luger has not been made to look like something it is not and it's a "no harm no foul" situation. The second case is more murky. What is "obviously" too large or small is a subjective thing to some degree. A green as grass Luger collector may not know the number on a small parts shouldn't be an inch high, or so small it takes a microscope to see it.


In the end this all comes down to the question, "Would I reasonably expect this alteration to fool anyone into thinking this Luger is something it is not?" If the answer is "yes", then the alteration will have malign consequences and should not be done. If the answer is "no" the alteration is benign.


Did this help?


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Edward Tinker]

Although older, this thread was pointed out to me as good for the newcomer and old member alike

ed

[alvin]

Regarding finding matching number parts, looks like it's more common in Lugers than in C96s. The reason is simple: there are many Luger parts still available. Just find a needed part is not a challenge, people want to find matching number parts, that's very normal when lots of parts are still available.

In C96s, we are looking for M1930s with banner stock. Stock is unnumbered, we can merry them together. When a gun comes with correct stock, that's more attractive than a naked gun. I just bought such an item (as an investment). They look pretty together. That stock may or may not sold with the gun back in 1930s, but they are comrades now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/660511509

In C96 domain, finding matching parts is like mission impossible. There are many parts coming from Chinese import pistols. Even if the number happen to match, its condition is usually too low to be mounted on a nice sample missing that particular part. So, this practice is relatively uncommon.

[mrerick]

Also, don't forget that there are some instances where rebuild and swapping of parts was normal while the firearm was in service.

We know that the Swiss had a regular rebuild and recondition program for their Lugers.

We also know that the Italian C-96 pistol were rebuilt in many cases by sacrificing other issued firearms and cannibalizing their (numbered) parts. This was caused by an inability for several months for Mauser to supply the Italians with replacement spare parts for their slab-side model C96 pistols.

[RShaw]

Hi All,
Very interesting thread, with many good points I had not thought of. In my signature I specify that I am looking for a P08 magazine number 7097. (the 2nd original mag for a 1917 DWM all matching including 1 matching mag.) My purpose is to find that second mag original to this gun. I had thought that there would be only 1 mag with this number, and that others with that number would also have a suffix. (Yes perhaps the suffix could be ground out in an attempt to procude a fake- didn't think of that)

For details, that thread is:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=36379

Am I to understand that there would be more than 1 mag with the original number 7097 out there? IS THERE ANY WAY to definitively tell whether a mag is a true match to a specific gun?

Maybe it's pointless to look for that second mag?

[DavidJayUden]

Maybe it's pointless to look for that second mag?

Not necessarily pointless, but don't start holding your breath just yet. Sometimes it's the quest for the Holy Grail that keeps us in the game.
dju

[RShaw]

True.... I know it's a long shot, but I'll keep looking.
Not to defraud, but to complete the matching gun. Good point earlier in this thread about record keeping- in the case that I would find the second mag, then my records would show where it came from....