1941 byf Questions

[Captain Emo]

Gentlemen, I am considering adding a 1941 byf to my collection. It is in 85-90%, all matching metal, great bore and matching magazine. The gun is nice, but the grips are not numbered. Should they be numbered for this pistol? How do the unmarked grips effect the price? What would be a fair price on this pistol as I have described it?

Thanks in advance guys. I am looking forward to my next Luger.

[Edward Tinker]

you must be in the military, as you don't have a first name~!

From the FAQ on this forum, although for a byf42, I am sure a byf 41 would be the same. Frank will correct me if I am wrong;

13) Proper Grips on a BYF 42?

Either wood or black bakelite grips would be proper on your byf 42. If you remove the grips, be very careful when you remove the left grip as it is very easy to chip the upper rear corner behind the safety. The grips should, but not always, have an eagle/135 stamp on them and, perhaps, the last 2 digits of the serial #. Again, the grips were not always stamped. If there is an eagle acceptance stamp that is not 135 or numbers that do not match the last two digits of the serial # on your gun, the grips were not issued with your pistol and are replacements. If they are stamped with only a 42 then the are, no doubt, armourers (sp) replacements.

Almost all of the byf 42's have the last two digits on the inside of the wood grips and almost all of them have the eagle 135 acceptance proof. In fact, it would be the exception to find an original issued byf 42 rig that did not have the last two digits and the eagle 135 proof on them, or at least one of them.

Ed

[Captain Emo]

So I take it the grips are old replacements?

I want a complete matching gun. This is as close as I have seen in some time. Could it have been issued without stamped grips?

[Frank]

Ed, the basic information is correct, except the Waffenamt Marks would be either E/655 or E/135. Of course, the Black Bakelite Grips are not numbered.

Capt. Emo, since you say the magazine matches the pistol, I'm guessing the grips are wooden. That being the case, they should have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the inside surface. If they are armourer replacements they should have E/655 or E/135 stamped on the inside surface.

If the wooden grips are not numbered or Waffenamt Marked, they are most likely post war replacements.

You must decide the value of the pistol. If the grips are "new" looking, they don't belong with an 85% pistol. If they appear to have the same wear as the pistol, then the lack of the grip number will be somewhat compensated by the fact the magazine is matching. The value is certainly greater than a "shooter", but less than a "collector".

Good Luck!!

[Captain Emo]

I am looking at them again today. I will cloesely examine the grips. I recall no markings, but could be wrong. They are wood.

The magazine has an aluminum base marked to the pistol.

Assuming that they are agred post-war replacements, would $700-$800 be too much for this pistol?

[Edward Tinker]

I think the value is low. A 85% pistol with non-matching grips, well, I simply wouldn't call it a shooter, a low-end collectable, maybe, but not a shooter class.

Even then, replacement e/655 grips are not that hard to find, so your value would go back up if found.

But, if looking for a rightous, all matching, then expect to pay $1200-$1500 for a nice nazi era luger. Get a mostly completed rig, with holster and tool, maybe not matching, but complete...

Ed

[Captain Emo]

Ed:

The seller also has a 1937 S/42 in similar condition with a holster and tool. The magazine does not match on that one.

So, am I better off with a non-matching magazine or non-matching grips? I can probably locate the grips faster than the correct magazine!

Thanks so much for your advice. I promised myself a "collector" Luger this time, not a shooter.

Eric

[Edward Tinker]

hmmm, a non matching magazine is more acceptable than non-matching grips, so thus more "common".

I would go for the non matching grips, provided the magazine looks original and "good"...

Other guys opinions?

Ed

[Frank]

Ed, right on with respect to the magazine vs. grips. I'll take the matching magazine every time. Just make sure it's a REAL match.

Depending on the serial number the magazine should be either a 122 or fxo with E/37 Waffenamt Marks. The bottom should just give you the serial number, including the proper suffix and a "+" sign if it is a spare.

I think $1200 to $1500 is way too high for a 85% semi-collectable. Less tha $1000 would be my guess!!

[Dwight Gruber]

No one in this discussion has yet advised you to be cautious about the matching magazine. Always be suspicious of a matching magazine, these have been ground and re-stamped for decades. If you do not know how to positively identify one yourself, show it to a collector who can before you put your money down.

I suggest that it will be just as difficult to find replacement e/655 grips as it would a true matching magazine. If you do find them, they will not come cheap.

You note that you have been offered a comparable S/42 with holster. You don't say, but I presume the cost is comparable. I won't presume to tell you how you should advance your collection, but I will suggest that you ask yourself, whether you will be happier with a Luger you can confidently present as authentic, or one with which you will be engaged in a long (and possibly fruitless) search for the parts to "make it right"?

--Dwight

[Captain Emo]

Points well taken. Perhaps I should pass on both until the right one comes my way.

[Frank]

Dwight, what the hell do you think I was doing when I outlined what I thought was a matching magazine???????

Next, I see E/655 grips on various occasions on Ebay, expensive, yes, but possible.

Let's get together on this one so Eric doesn't get taken!!!

[Herb]

Those numbers and WAa's on wooden grips are sometimes pretty hard to see. Turn the grip to various angles so the light hits it from different ways, when I say hard to see I mean HARD to see.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Dwight Gruber
No one in this discussion has yet advised you to be cautious about the matching magazine.

provided the magazine looks original and "good"...

I'll take the matching magazine every time. Just make sure it's a REAL match.

Maybe not to the detail you wanted Dwight, but I said be careful and so did Frank

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Frank


I think $1200 to $1500 is way too high for a 85% semi-collectable. Less than $1000 would be my guess!!

Well, I am fairly good at playing the Antiques Roadshow but sometimes go a bit higher than I should ;

Simpsons LTD:

MAUSER 41 BYF; 9 mm; 93% blue, good bore, excellent grips, Third Reich Lugers pp 66, s/n 16xxx, Catalog Number M-34 D5996 $1,895.00

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/mo...uns.htm#Lugers

Mauser P-08 9mm caliber byf code pistol with 41 date. FXO magazine with 97% blue. $1595.00 see picture Item# PR5885

However, in my quote, I should have said; a 85% would go for lower, a 90% more, a 95% a lot more...
but that is why I said

But, if looking for a rightous, all matching, then expect to pay $1200-$1500 for a nice nazi era luger.

Ed

[Herb]

ALL MATCHING?? The correct magazine for those byf's also included a non-numbered FXO aluminum or a black phonelic base mag. Are these models included in the ALL MATCHING category?

[Edward Tinker]

rightous meaning, research it, find out what is correct and what isn't.

Many times H.P. marked lugers are sold as "ruined" because their stock lug is cut off. But this "variation" comes that way.


Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Herb,

A good point, and thanks for bringing it up. I checked Still Axis Pistols p.125, according to this source the earliest byf 41 were issued with 122-marked extruded magazines, aluminum base serial-numbered to the gun. byf 41 were "generally" issued with fxo-marked mags, aluminum base serial-numbered; byf 42 were "generally" issued with the black plastic, unmarked base.

Still also notes the existence of these extruded mags with aluminum bases and only 42, S/42, or WaffenAmt eagle acceptance marks; he identifies these as arsenal replacement magazines.

In my conservative opinion the black plastic on a byf 42, or replacement-marked mags on byf 41 and 42, are 'authentic'; anything else either matches or doesn't.

--Dwight

[Captain Emo]

This particular pistol has a numbered aluminum based magazine. I am putting the seller off until Friday morning.

[Herb]

The reason I brought it up is that I have an all original matching byf 42 which was a vet bring back and included a very nice brown 1939 Carl Ackva holster and a near mint FXO aluminum base completely un-marked, magazine. The grips have the last two digits of the serial # plus the E/135 acceptance stamp. I would rate the finish at about 95% or better. I see no reason, other than loss of the original, for it to have a replacement magazine. Now for the S/42 magazine, I have one of those too, the condition is very good, no serial number, but it is of the sheet metal formed type, not an FXO. It also has the DWE 63 stamp of Mauser.