Manners

Dwight Gruber · 12-14-2005, 01:55 PM

Here is a question which has popped into my mind, regarding a situation which we all will probably, or already have, faced as gun collectors.

You are talking guns with somebody, and they show you their unit-marked 1917 Navy Luger. As you examine it, you recognize that all is not in ordnung, that the gun is in fact a counterfeit.

An offer of sale is not involved, it is simply a "look at this neat thing I've got" situation. What do you tell them?...if they are a friend?...an acquaintence?...a stranger at a gun show table?...someone whose hospitality you are enjoying? (...a correspondent in an online Forum???)

And the gun in question doesn't have to be a Navy Luger, I only use it as an example because I have become a bit familiar with these guns, and can picture myself in the situation. It is a question which applies to any gun sufficiently rare or valuable to have counterfeit potential.

--Dwight

Rod WMG · 12-14-2005, 02:50 PM

I honestly don't know. I'm certain it's reasonable to expect that everyone would be disappointed to learn that. Beyond that...?

I think it'd depend on who did the telling and what his attitude was. If the news were delivered with a sneer and air of superiority (I don't think you'd do that, Dwight, btw), I think I might invite the guy to leave immediately.

c3006 · 12-14-2005, 03:04 PM

Comeing from the no nothing neophyte that I am,I would be glad you told me.

Brent B. · 12-14-2005, 03:23 PM

I think I'd start out with " I can understand you're being excited...but there are a couple of things that concern me" and see how the conversation goes from there. If his feathers get ruffled then enough said. Myself, I'd rather be told.

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2005, 04:52 PM

That is hard to do, if you were at my house, and said that to me, i would be upset, then make you prove it, and be grateful for you beig honest

Lets say you are at a gunshow, well, then you could go with me and we both raise hell about it....

I think most folks would not appreciate you being honest, cuz guys get pissy when they find they've been snookered....

Ed

wlyon · 12-14-2005, 05:50 PM

I feel it is better to mind your own business. If you are asked for an opinion be honest. If not asked shut up. I think we have all watched "deals " at gun shows and wanted to scream. In the end ,unless asked , silence is better. We were not elected nor chosen to be the worlds sales manager.IMHO

Curly1 · 12-14-2005, 07:02 PM

I would want the opinion no matter how bad it was that's how ya learn. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Ignorance is not always bliss.

Roadkill · 12-14-2005, 08:01 PM

Nope. Keep my mouth shut. I almost got my ass whipped at a flea market when I told a guy that a MN Mod 44 he just bought was not chambered for 30-30. And he was the I guy rode with to the flea market. He got mad and drove off and left me and I had to borrow a cell phone from a recently arrived undocumented guest worker who spoke no English to call my wife to get me.

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2005, 08:31 PM

did the rifle survive his idiocy?

Lugerlover · 12-14-2005, 09:15 PM

I would certainly want to told if a problem existed. Of course I would be upset, but not with the person pointing it out to me. The guilt lies with the one that created the problem. This person could be several owners down the line. You may never know who is to blame for the misdeed. By pointing out to me that a problem exists, you stop the chain of deceit. Failing to inform someone of such a problem is doing them a disservice in my opinion. Once they know of the problem, it is up to them how they act upon it.

Bill McGrevin

Roadkill · 12-14-2005, 09:15 PM

Ed, for all I know he's still using the thing for deer hunting. I never really thought about it, but they are both .30 caliber and are rimed cartridges. I'm sure the OAL on the 7.52x54 is longer though. The 30-30 is lower powered and probably will chamber and fire. Soon as this cold nasty rain quits I'll head up to the toy room and check it out. If it does work I don't see any advantage. (I've got three deer already this season with my Marlin 336 30-30, going back bow hunting on the wildlife refuge Friday.)

rk

John D. · 12-14-2005, 09:39 PM

It's a great question.....

Since I get asked to verify a certain species of Lugers on a regular basis (which is a whole 'nother question - "how do you tell a new owner what they just bought is boosted/wrong/counterfeit..")...

Anyway - I try to gauge the attitude of the person I'm talking to... If they seem like an honest person, I'll start asking them why "this is like that..", or based on mine - I can see that this is dfferent... Anyway - I never tell them "I KNOW it's fake", rather - I believe it's not correct based on what I've seen or have....

The second type of seller I've run in to knows it's bogus - and they know I know. I just walk away and make a mental note...

Great topic...!

John D.

MikeP · 12-18-2005, 01:41 PM

What Brent said.

thegundude · 12-18-2005, 03:38 PM

Quote:

As you examine it, you recognize that all is not in ordnung, that the gun is in fact a counterfeit.

Oh no! You're talking about one of my guns, aren't you!

I just knew it! Why didn't you tell me BEFORE I bought it? It's actually a piece of junk, isn't it??

On no! Woe is me.....

wterrell · 12-18-2005, 09:22 PM

It would be more diplomatic to bring the gun owner to consider whether his gun is in ordnung through questions rather of statements. Statements are agressive and the owner will become defensive. Questions will disarm the owner with implication of learning. If he does not know that facts of what you are asking, the uncertainty will cause him to go home and research. If you are out to prove how much you know, then you had better carry boxing gloves.

Edward Tinker · 12-18-2005, 10:05 PM

Well said Wes, better to talk them down, then push them off the cliff.

Wes, we hadn't heard from you in a long time

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 12-18-2005, 10:51 PM

Wes,

Really delighted to hear from you. Your thoughts are akin to my own proclivities in the matter.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 12-19-2005, 07:34 AM

Yeah Wes, you been quiet a long time? Hope all is well. Merry Christmas my friend... good to have you back.

Lugerdoc · 12-19-2005, 10:21 AM

If someone approaches me at a gun show for my opinion on a pistol that he has purchased, I'll give him my unvarnished opinion. Better that he know the truth, while he may still have time to reverse a deal. Just be sure that you know what your talking about. I once has a customer of mine, shout at me that a LPO8 that I sold him was not matching, because a "buddy" of his noticed that the contract number on the barrel, under the rear sight was not the same as the serial number. Finally, to shut him up, I told him that I've give him double his money back, if a mutually agreed on luger expert agreed that the gun was not matching. Well, I still have the money and he still has the gun. TH

Lyn Islaub · 12-19-2005, 09:30 PM

When they show up at my table, I'll venture an opinion if asked to, because I display a sign soliciting WW2 relics. However, if they just want to show and tell and don't want an opinion, I will normally keep my thoughts to to myself even if I know they have a ringer. As a couple of members have already said, the majority of folks don't want unsolicited bad news. I've had a couple of circumstances where folks showed up with a new purchase that was not what it was advertised to be and I turned out to be the bad guy when I ventured a negative opinion.
Lyn

12-14-2005, 01:55 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Manners Here is a question which has popped into my mind, regarding a situation which we all will probably, or already have, faced as gun collectors. You are talking guns with somebody, and they show you their unit-marked 1917 Navy Luger. As you examine it, you recognize that all is not in ordnung, that the gun is in fact a counterfeit. An offer of sale is not involved, it is simply a "look at this neat thing I've got" situation. What do you tell them?...if they are a friend?...an acquaintence?...a stranger at a gun show table?...someone whose hospitality you are enjoying? (...a correspondent in an online Forum???) And the gun in question doesn't have to be a Navy Luger, I only use it as an example because I have become a bit familiar with these guns, and can picture myself in the situation. It is a question which applies to any gun sufficiently rare or valuable to have counterfeit potential. --Dwight

12-14-2005, 03:04 PM	#3
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	Comeing from the no nothing neophyte that I am,I would be glad you told me. __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

12-14-2005, 05:50 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,655 Thanks: 3,212 Thanked 2,619 Times in 971 Posts	I feel it is better to mind your own business. If you are asked for an opinion be honest. If not asked shut up. I think we have all watched "deals " at gun shows and wanted to scream. In the end ,unless asked , silence is better. We were not elected nor chosen to be the worlds sales manager.IMHO __________________ Bill Lyon

12-14-2005, 07:02 PM	#7
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,247 Thanks: 125 Thanked 717 Times in 374 Posts	I would want the opinion no matter how bad it was that's how ya learn. fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Ignorance is not always bliss. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

12-14-2005, 08:31 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	did the rifle survive his idiocy? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-14-2005, 02:50 PM	#2
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I honestly don't know. I'm certain it's reasonable to expect that everyone would be disappointed to learn that. Beyond that...? I think it'd depend on who did the telling and what his attitude was. If the news were delivered with a sneer and air of superiority (I don't think you'd do that, Dwight, btw), I think I might invite the guy to leave immediately.

12-14-2005, 03:23 PM	#4
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think I'd start out with " I can understand you're being excited...but there are a couple of things that concern me" and see how the conversation goes from there. If his feathers get ruffled then enough said. Myself, I'd rather be told.

12-14-2005, 04:52 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	That is hard to do, if you were at my house, and said that to me, i would be upset, then make you prove it, and be grateful for you beig honest Lets say you are at a gunshow, well, then you could go with me and we both raise hell about it.... I think *most* folks would not appreciate you being honest, cuz guys get pissy when they find they've been snookered.... Ed

12-14-2005, 08:01 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Nope. Keep my mouth shut. I almost got my ass whipped at a flea market when I told a guy that a MN Mod 44 he just bought was not chambered for 30-30. And he was the I guy rode with to the flea market. He got mad and drove off and left me and I had to borrow a cell phone from a recently arrived undocumented guest worker who spoke no English to call my wife to get me.

12-14-2005, 09:15 PM	#10
Lugerlover User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I would certainly want to told if a problem existed. Of course I would be upset, but not with the person pointing it out to me. The guilt lies with the one that created the problem. This person could be several owners down the line. You may never know who is to blame for the misdeed. By pointing out to me that a problem exists, you stop the chain of deceit. Failing to inform someone of such a problem is doing them a disservice in my opinion. Once they know of the problem, it is up to them how they act upon it. Bill McGrevin

12-14-2005, 09:39 PM	#12
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	It's a great question..... Since I get asked to verify a certain species of Lugers on a regular basis (which is a whole 'nother question - "how do you tell a new owner what they just bought is boosted/wrong/counterfeit..")... Anyway - I try to gauge the attitude of the person I'm talking to... If they seem like an honest person, I'll start asking them why "this is like that..", or based on mine - I can see that this is dfferent... Anyway - I never tell them "I KNOW it's fake", rather - I believe it's not correct based on what I've seen or have.... The second type of seller I've run in to knows it's bogus - and they know I know. I just walk away and make a mental note... Great topic...! John D.

12-18-2005, 01:41 PM	#13
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	What Brent said.

12-18-2005, 09:22 PM	#15
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It would be more diplomatic to bring the gun owner to consider whether his gun is in ordnung through questions rather of statements. Statements are agressive and the owner will become defensive. Questions will disarm the owner with implication of learning. If he does not know that facts of what you are asking, the uncertainty will cause him to go home and research. If you are out to prove how much you know, then you had better carry boxing gloves. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

12-18-2005, 10:05 PM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Well said Wes, better to talk them down, then push them off the cliff. Wes, we hadn't heard from you in a long time Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-18-2005, 10:51 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Wes, Really delighted to hear from you. Your thoughts are akin to my own proclivities in the matter. --Dwight

12-19-2005, 07:34 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Yeah Wes, you been quiet a long time? Hope all is well. Merry Christmas my friend... good to have you back. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-19-2005, 10:21 AM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	If someone approaches me at a gun show for my opinion on a pistol that he has purchased, I'll give him my unvarnished opinion. Better that he know the truth, while he may still have time to reverse a deal. Just be sure that you know what your talking about. I once has a customer of mine, shout at me that a LPO8 that I sold him was not matching, because a "buddy" of his noticed that the contract number on the barrel, under the rear sight was not the same as the serial number. Finally, to shut him up, I told him that I've give him double his money back, if a mutually agreed on luger expert agreed that the gun was not matching. Well, I still have the money and he still has the gun. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-19-2005, 09:30 PM	#20
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	When they show up at my table, I'll venture an opinion if asked to, because I display a sign soliciting WW2 relics. However, if they just want to show and tell and don't want an opinion, I will normally keep my thoughts to to myself even if I know they have a ringer. As a couple of members have already said, the majority of folks don't want unsolicited bad news. I've had a couple of circumstances where folks showed up with a new purchase that was not what it was advertised to be and I turned out to be the bad guy when I ventured a negative opinion. Lyn